We'll just have to wait and see about the character models. We've only seen Ryo and Shenhua so far. No Ren, no Chai, no Xiuying and so on.

Yu has stated numerous times that he's very aware of especially Ryo looking "off". We'll have to just toughen out the wait. They sure had a reason for not showing Ryo's face.

It also wouldn't be wise to draw conclusions on the rightness or wrongness of a small part of a videogame that would be barely at 50% completion at best.

But c'est la vie.

Hey everyone! I haven't really written my reaction to this awesome update outside of the twitch streams etc but I want to shed light as to why I am excited. This game is coming along really well and I also think these updates will slowly help to set peoples expectations onto what this game will actually be like as it heads towards its eventual release.

Before the kickstarter announcement ever happened, I expect whenever people envision a potential Shenmue 3 it was something similar to what was seen in the Yakuza 6 trailer perhaps where it would be really grand in its budget and aiming to redefine the genre that it's in etc. And I actually feel that a more modest budget (even though it's still a decent amount!) is going to do more good for Shenmue 3 than a blank cheque was ever going to do.

Shenmue 3 from the get-go seems to have a lot more focus/vision in terms of what they want to accomplish and the new update really communicates that well. The notebook, the simple act of opening cupboards and the chair, the QTE's and (potentially) the Nightfall fade that Himuro speculated all give the impression of this being a direct sequel without any other concerns/guff based on contemporary trends. It just feels as if I can jump into the game with the same mindset as if I was 12 year old again! :-) It's so cool to see all the dev's team comeback and be willing to do it (I'm sure fans of many other franchises could say the same thing!)

Another great reason to get excited about Shenmue 3 is that this is by FAR the best generation for it to happen outside of DC/Xbox OG. Could you imagine if Shenmue 3 was made for the Xbox 360/PS3 era? Not only would it present more limitations tech-wise for the team but it would've incredibly more expensive for them to produce. The best advantage of current gen isn't necessarily in CPU+GPU but just the ease of the development environment and the tools/engine (like UE4) allowing indies to do more faster and spend much less. It doesn't surprise me at all the pace at which Peter describes was accomplished, and it's great to hear that UE4 is indeed doing wonders for them.

I want to also convince some of you guys that I don't think the budget will be too much of a concern for it's impact on quality the game, especially in terms of scope and fidelity. I think the team is making the right decision in terms of focusing on the world/game logic elements first atm, that imo is the real star of Shenmue, not how pristine Ryo's hairs looks like atm. You gotta 'feel' Shenmue as well as see it (+the audio is obviously a HUGE part of the shenmue experience, no doubt is it guaranteed to strive in this regard). Despite what we've discussed about different teams handling different assets, the world looks incredible and the attention to detail. As Spags mentions, it is often better to leave the finishing touches like the models for later especially if they're working in a small group, which often brings its own advantages especially in terms of communication. A lot of this reminds me of what I saw during the Broken Sword 5 kickstarter, especially when details such as the face sticks out to the fans, but eventually:

https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/projects/279861/posts/299579/image-154133-original.png?w=560&fit=max&v=1346437496&auto=format&q=92&s=b74b81a71b1afa2e355f0036f6e302f3
https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/projects/279861/posts/299579/image-154135-original.png?w=560&fit=max&v=1346437509&auto=format&q=92&s=a270d6dd4bcf59a2ec7b065379758384
I'm glad YS.net have included disclaimers at the bottom of the game footage whenever they show this stuff now!

There are a lot of videogames achieving so much with so little these days, people often mention the Witcher 3 in terms of budget+output of quality but I actually want to instead bring up two other games with pretty low budgets (+ don't have the advantage of tax breaks etc in their country) which are getting their own 3rd entries after so long within the next month: Dreamfall Chapters (for consoles) and Syberia 3. The originals were point and click adventures as you can see but it doesn't mean the latest entries are lacking in their vision. For me this genre is one of the reasons why I've always like shenmue so much at the time with aspects of how the game felt like an evolution to the storytelling seen in adventure games. It still seems crazy to me what is accomplished here with so little.

Syberia 1:
http://cdn-games.bigfishsites.com/es_syberia-parte-2/screen2.jpg
Syberia 3:
http://www.3dmgame.com/uploads/allimg/161006/244-161006105000.jpg
http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Syberia-3_08-18-16.jpg

The Longest Journey (Dreamfall 1):
http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/6310/0000001816.600x338.jpg?t=1479319224
Dreamfall 2:
http://www.lillyblossom.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/dreamfall.jpg
Dreamfall 3:
https://nambulous.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/dreamfall-chapters-book-one-0022.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HCaBd1ZaCN4/V2WhCQqhLXI/AAAAAAAA6uA/eJKDbYKzFKQClOYjhKm3Asou_hMEq7PGgCKgB/s1600/20160614193737_1.jpg

Onto features, perhaps the notebook tabs will cover events from previous games and chapters? I think that would be really cool. I also think it would be really interesting to discuss/debate (formally! xD) what concessions fans are willing to make for this game if it comes to it (such as full voice-overs, lips sync and and fighting sequences) I can understand people's concern over time for them just because they're so challenging for any game of any budget to accomplish but we've gotta just believe and hope in this regard. And I believe the father of VF knows what's best for the game. Personally voice-over was important to me at one time but I think it's become less important for me personally (especially after the Yakuza games, funnily the lack of it at first was so jarring to me at first lol).

Apologies if this post was lengthy but as you can see, there's just so much to be happy about I couldn't keep quiet about it! I'm really excited about the direction this game is heading in, the timing and passion involved all-round. Revisiting the older game briefly, I don't it's out of question for them to achieve that Shenmue roaming experience in 2017/18 again, they've got all the ingredients to do this and imo the experience distils down to a matter of the dev's unique taste and approach I think.

(It's going to be a bit scary for when this game does get closer to it's eventual release though, I don't think I'm physically or emotionally prepared for it yet xD.)

Comment from the latest Kickstarter update video: https://youtu.be/HUblCa_MHBM

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ultimately his is just an opinion in a sea of others, and we really don't need it anyway considering every Shenmue fan got validated in liking it when Shenmue III broke Kickstarter records despite being a dead franchise for the better part of 20 years.

Shenmue fans have had to eat a lot of shit from people who didn't like the game, and even spitefully tried to tell us that we shouldn't want it, or we'll never get it.

But y'know, we persevered, and even though there are still attempts to bring us and the series down despite finally getting Shenmue III, this community can hold its own and promote the series positively to cut through the bullshit and reach the people who the game will strike a chord with.

I wrote a longer post than this as a genuine rebuttal to his points (as some of them are pretty dumb, IMO), but it doesn't really matter, because he doesn't really matter to us.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Himuro wrote: Who is that?

It's this guy from the Shenmue III reveal:

I've received many requests on Youtube to include the dog and bird sounds into the FREE 1 track.

When Shenmue 1 was launched, Famitsu did an entire feature on how stalk a woman to see her pants with precise time, location and viewing angles notes.

"Welcome to Whose Line is it Anyway, the show where everything's made up and the points don't matter"

A variation of this should be the disclaimer on anything to do with the chapters.

I've finally done what it took to remedy one of my biggest mistake Shenmue wise... let my Dreamcast go, games included.

I'm now the proud "dad" (again) of an adopted family of three:
Dreamcast, Shenmue & Shenmue II. :king:

http://i.imgur.com/AQsrbUK.jpg

Ah Good. :heart:

Don't know how many of you saw this, but BlueMue made an excellent video showing an oft-missed 'event' in the game:

Mass Effect Andromeda is definitely yet another good example that you can't ship a buggy game and expect players not to notice the defects as a result, but there are more reasons than just development time that it came out like that.

Andromeda had close to 5 years in development by most accounts I can find, but there were numerous staffing issues with project leads leaving development, engine and tools problems going from UE3 to Frostbite, and an unscrupulous publisher like EA who shoved the game out the door before the end of their fiscal year without a care about the state of the game.

That's more why Andromeda came out like it did (and why it would still be very flawed even if bug-free), and less just a matter of needing more time in the oven.

Thankfully YSnet and Shenmue III appear in a much better position on numerous fronts.

I guess my point is that even if Shenmue III releases in December 2017 as planned it doesn't automatically mean that they're releasing it as unfinished or compromised.

I would say yes. You guys don't have to believe us, but what Spaghetti was saying about smoke and mirrors, and what they have revealed in Kickstarter updates compared to what we have seen, they are playing their cards very close to their chest. No bullshit or joking about here, and Adam, Matt, George, Jessica and Joe will back me up on this 100%.

Understand how much money i personally had to give, and the sacrifices i am still having to make to this day, to be sitting there on that bus. Do you really think Yu and the gang turned around and said, "peeps we are fucked here. We only have a shitty Ryo model and a fishing pond to show ya, but please, big it up to the hills when you get back and make it seem like we know what we are doing. Thanks buddy.". If i seen something i wasn't happy with, then trust me they would have heard about it. In fact, there was one thing that i was unhappy with, but i wasn't going to say anything. But after talking with Matt (sitting beside me) he brought up the same thing. Did we say something? Damn right we did. It was about the QTE sequence we seen and we were not happy with aspects of it. Yu himself humbly apologised..... Let that sink in. Yu Suzuki is fucking apologising to us?? That's how humble he is. He knows what he needs to do, and how demanding us hardcore Shenmue fans are. He knows what we want and expect. He assured that it was still early testing and that it was being worked on, like every aspect of the game. But this was a fully rendered and animated QTE sequence with black suits, much in the style of the White Dynasty QTE sequence from Shenmue 2.

Do i think the game is going to be delayed? Of course. What game isn't these days. But the reasons i have are the opposite, in that the game could probably be released in December on schedule, but i know Yu will agonise over EVERY detail and pixel in this game. Every line of dialogue and how it's spoken. How the animations look, how the cut scenes are directed. I think this game will be delayed because for the lack of resources he has now compared to what he had at Sega, he will still try and make sure this game goes out looking as ambitious and grandeur the originals were.

So what if it's delayed. Big deal. Are they liars and cheaters! No they are not, and if i see anyone brand the team with slurs like that, they will be warned. What difference does it really make, except for good things. We don't know what's happening, and if 2 fully HD remasters are due to be released over the coming year or so, then by all means take your time YSNET. We have 2 games to keep us preoccupied. We don't know that for sure, but have some faith. Everything will be fine. Before you know it's you will have completed this game over a matter of hours. See when you have completed it, that's when to worry about if there will be a Shenmue 4 or where the future lies. Right now, you know what's coming, so enjoy the ride and the excitement of Kickstarter updates and major gaming events because very soon, it will all come to an end. Stop thinking and worrying about the future and live for the now.

The Shenmue series changed my life for the better, it is a videogame series that made me realise the importance of things in life, the small little things shown in the story of Ryo and his quest for vengeance is very emotional and an experience that can never be forgotten. I am only 17 years old and I will be telling you why I love Shenmue.

In 2012 after being convinced all the time throughout my life to play Shenmue 1 and 2 (which I was very keen on doing) by my elder brother that played them both at release, I finally play my brother's copy of the original Shenmue for Sega Dreamcast for the first time, I was only 13 years old at the time. I began the game as I see Iwao get killed by Lan Di and then make my way through the game experiencing a chilling and heartwarming journey through Dobuita and into the Yokosuka Harbor. Meeting many of Ryo's beloved friends as well as new people that hurt (such as the skinheaded Chai) and help on the way. Finally after beating all the thugs called the Mad Angels, they help us find out about Lan Di and his departure. Seeing Ryo leave Japan and board on the boat I was ready to continue the story through action packed Shenmue 2 and I could already feel the energy and bravery within Ryo himself.

Shenmue 2 begins and I am impressed with the very intense and epic boat intro, the music, angles and visual detail was incredibly welcoming and exhilarating. Yet to this day I would say that Shenmue 2 has the greatest opening intro to a sequel ever! I was immediately immersed in the huge new open world in Hong Kong getting robbed and eventually finding the guest house to sleep in. I felt as an actual stranger in a new town full of danger and people I do not know exactly like how Ryo would feel. I made my way through Hong Kong and then eventually to Kowloon then finally meeting Shenhua at Guilin until the stone pit where the game finally ends, I get chills and was ready for Shenmue 3...

Until E3 2015 It was finally announced! I waited 2 years but my brother had waited ever since such as most fans. Me and my brother are absolutely delighted to continue the story thanks to the one and only Yu Suzuki for making this all possible with his masterful vision.

I cannot wait for Shenmue 3!!! I know it will exceed expectations and be one of the greatest games of all time just like Shenmue 1 and 2, we have to give them time and it will be possible I truly believe so.

I've posted up a translation of an interview with Yu Suzuki that was published in January by Famitsu.com to commemorate the release of a new games collection by Sega that has ties to some of his old arcade hits.

In it, Suzuki gives his feelings towards Champion Boxing, and also talks briefly about Shenmue III, revealing how the Dreamcast console is playing its part in the development.

http://i.imgur.com/ttbgtfHl.jpg

Link to the interview:
http://www.phantomriverstone.com/2017/04/yu-suzuki-interview-for-release-of-sega.html

Looks like the game is a great success for Atlus:

Persona 5 ships over 1.5 million worldwide just days after P5 released in the West.

http://gematsu.com/2017/04/persona-5-worldwide-shipments-top-1-5-million

Persona 5 is by far the biggest launch for the series in the UK - #1

Launched on Tuesday on PS4 and PS3 and receiving glowing reviews, ‘Persona 5’ from Atlus/Deep Silver debuts at No1. It is the first J-RPG (Japanese RPG) to debut at the top of the All Formats Chart since ‘Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch’ back in W5 2013 (‘Final Fantasy XV’ launched at No2, but it had to contend with ‘FIFA 17’). It is by far the biggest launch for a ‘Persona’ title and the first ever All Formats No1 for developer and publisher Atlus.

Japan is back, baby.

(Yakuza 0 is the best selling Yakuza in the West since the PS2 era, Nier: Automata sold over a million copies worldwide and is considered by Square as a great success, same goes for Nioh for Tecmo-Koei who seemed really chuffed reaching over a million sales worldwide too)

I just hope that Atlus take a leaf out of From Software's book and stay the same as they are, since they were attempting to chase after certain audiences a little while ago, so hopefully they keep releasing quality games. Happy for them though, they were niche, now they've pretty much reached From Software's level of popularity, I think.

Direct port of the games (just upscaled) would harm the franchise more than doing nothing

Shenmue deserves the Yakuza Kiwami treatment.

Sega say they want to retain the Dreamcast feel so they may keep the controls kosher in a misguided manner.
That's not exactly what they said. The most pertinent quotes from Jurgen Post and Dan Sheridan are "we'd want to do fantastic conversions to the current platforms" and "we would need to ensure that any HD remaster lives up to the quality of the original titles". There's definitely reference to being faithful to the Dreamcast originals, but that's usually with a follow-on about the product licencing issues.

If they're being real about wanting to do a top quality update, then they know the bare minimum is an alternate control scheme.

no no... NO!
the camera should stick behind Ryo all the fucking time except for zoom into objects just like it was before.
and they should stick with Tank control not 360 degree movement crap.


I think this would be a recipe for getting savaged in reviews. Keep tank controls as an option but have an updated control scheme as default. There's a reason why they're called "tank" controls and not "natural human motion" controls. This is supposed to be a game for millions of people, not just the players from the Dreamcast era. It should be possible to cater to both.

I'm a little surprised they went back on what they said in the March update, but if they're busy, they're busy. Nothing we can do about that, and there's nothing wrong with it either. Might as well be sensible about the whole thing and wait it out rather than grab the pitchfork and torches.

E3 is a little over a month away. I think we can wait and see what happens there.

Despite what i may or may not know, after PSX i am still remaining cautious. But i think my personal life more contributes to any negativity i have so i will continue to remain relatively quiet on the whole matter and patiently wait to see what happens.

Tight race between "Shenmue 3 trailer & HD remasters" and "Shenmue 3 trailer, no HD remasters".

I'll repost this as a reminder (posted on Twitter on April 2nd 2017):

http://i.imgur.com/30sE13A.jpg
"There is activity around the Shenmue franchise. I don't have enough info to tell more about it at the moment but it looks positive!"

Romain Mahut works as journalist for french gaming website (second most popular in France, behind Gamekult) Gameblog and is also known to be a huge Shenmue fan.

Let's hope this is real substance.

Kiske wrote:

Let's Get Sweaty wrote: People were talking a while back about having a fruit basket or something sent to the office. What happened with that?

Lost in translation.

Anyway, very good reminder! I would be happy to contribute!

There's grapes in the wine!

This thread is for ideas. ShenGCH had the idea of a massive card that is signed by various Shenmue fans around the world. I had the idea of giving the team a fruit basket.


I think both are great ideas, but I'd prefer the card signed with some words thanking them for their hard work and giving us the opportunity to see the adventures of Ryo again.

I'd gladly participate :D

No, no don't apologise!

This time around, I am keeping my feet firmly planted on Earth. Dealing with fact only. I am not doing rumors this year, I just can't face the backlash or letdown of it. Not right now.

People say stupid things when they're upset. I'm sure we're all guilty of it in life. As long as you learn from these mistakes, I don't see a reason not to forgive. Let's not provoke arguments on a thread that's supposed to be about doing something nice.

Bringing up that first wave of Dreamcast ports is a little irrelevant now, considering SEGA have done a better job since on other titles.

In fact, did we forget that they went back and cleaned up the PC versions a little bit a few years ago? I would say they're more embarrassed by the quality of those ports than complacent and eager to repeat the performance.

Sorry I'm late to the thread.

Count me in!

I can't do much but I'll do the best I can

If they put out an amazing trailer at E3 with the words "March 2018" at the end, no-one will honestly give a shit about the delay as long as it looks good.

Even in fans' dreams, Sega can't resist leaving Shenmue on a damn cliffhanger.

Hope everyone's got their ShenmuE3 advent calendars ready!

Hype is officially real now.....

PSX was a unique situation, I think, and unlikely to repeat itself.

Anything you said was obviously in the best intentions and with information you'd been told directly from the development team, Peter. There's no harm there. I don't think any of us would have done any differently if we'd been told the same. Even apart from that, we had seen - or at least perceived - other hints that stoked the fire of expectation.

We're all wiser and stronger for it now though, and in the grand scheme of things we all got over it pretty quickly in the end.

That said... if they skip E3, it's going to be painful. It'll be a total mismanagement of communication if Cedric has been out there still saying December 2017 is the release window, when the situation at YSnet would not have reflected that. I can totally understand if the game isn't ready to show, but if it goes down like that they should have gotten ahead of the issue earlier on.

But on an optimistic note, I don't think they'd leave Cedric out to dry like that with bad information, and on that basis they are preparing for an imminent reveal. E3 is the obvious hope, but even if it doesn't make it I would really, really, really be surprised if there isn't a formal reveal by trailer, or demo, or an extensive update by the end of the Summer.

Assuming we go the easy route, people from hense forth or in another thread linked to this, simply just put the names they want to be known by- either their real name first and or last, their forum name or some other nickname that they go by.

Or simply say "from the fans, friends, people of Shenmue Dojo" or what ever. I mean reading a long list of names where it is page after page after page may seem a bit intimidating.

Then take that and copy and paste into an electronic email or hand write it to give a more personal touch and send. Or if a petition can become a card we can just sign that ourselves and it be sent.

But to be honest I think it is best, if we are sending a fruit basket or something similar, let that card be something short and sweet "From the fans [of Shenmue] at Shenmue Dojo". No worries, no extra headaches, no worrying about if lost in transit or of they can read your hand writing. Plus a fruit basket delivery and maybe even some nice pastries can be tracked so we know they will get it.

The next concern is, how much can be raised in such a short time and is it enough to not be totally worthless, as in easily over looked and pushed to the side, but not overly done either with fifteen different things to over whelm them.

I personally think we should get them something from with in the game world. Like flowers saying "From Nozomi's Flower shop, by the fans of Shenmue Dojo" [-o< or what ever it is called. This is of course if the real flower shop does not mind. But you can basically say what ever you want on the card, but I think it gives it a nice flare to an otherwise mundane gift. Were there any fruit sellers in Shemue 1? If just a fruit basket use the name of that shop from us.

Edit: And obviously, as the last poster said, anything that is not hand crafted and especially perishable needs to be sent with in or at least ordered from Japan. That is a no brainer.

Ladies & Gentlemen, THE picture we were all waiting for!



https://twitter.com/giocorsi/status/864734159217999872

Holding Shenmue for Dreamcast together...

You know I am gonna be the anti hype for this E3, so:

https://68.media.tumblr.com/9fa083ccb1d9ddf3a1a239bc4389af50/tumblr_oq38qutSFV1vilcqco1_400.jpg

Don't forget, the exact same thing happened before PSX and nothing was shown.

The same logic also applies here, as to why Gio would post this specific picture out of all the developers he would have met on his pre E3 Japan trip. This is just spoiling what could be a massive secret for their E3 conference so why spoil it? Unless it's not a spoiler, and there will be no Shenmue 3 on the Sony stage....


(There are far many more positives and logical arguments that Shenmue WILL be at E3, so by all means, talk about them. I'm just fact checking and keeping a level head this time around lol)

To simplify things, maybe we could use an online gift basket service based in Japan (eg http://www.giftbasketsjapan.jp/) and set the delivery address to the YS NET offices. I'm pretty sure these websites let you send a little message along with the basket and we could keep it short and sweet by writing something along the lines of "Dear Yu Suzuki and the Shenmue III team, thank you for everything you do, from your friends at the Shenmue Dojo".

Thoughts?

It's a great idea to be sure; showing extra support. Everyone enjoys being appreciated as I'm sure this team would as well. That said, I'm tapped out of resources at the moment and cannot contribute beyond adding a thank you in written form.

Aside from the roller coaster-like range of emotions that come from trying to figure out if each tweet is some kind of clue to what's in store... my impression of the photo is that Gio Corsi and Yu Suzuki appear at ease and genuinely happy. So Shenmue III is in a fine state no matter what happens with E3.

That's perfect!

GoFundMe sounds perfect. I'll be only too happy to contribute

As far as I remember the faces ( at least the passport ones and I bet some others too) Are digital scans from some handmade busts.

http://i.gyazo.com/c62a23b466991608f65476ce66b93542.png
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSIOojzDPnjbl_Xm9XhFLdziPUOmaYl9d2d7z0M3ZNOxOYDSiPbuw


Those busts were used not only in the passport but in the Shenmue online trailer and official artwork.

Passport
http://i.imgur.com/l5OzfC9.jpg

Shenmue online
http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/081c121996067879e2804bfc7024dcd01233201400_full.jpg

Artwork
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100104004206/halofanon/images/b/b3/Shen2-ryo-hazuki2.jpg


Passport Face ( tweaked +Into a new model)
http://i.imgur.com/1Yt7ryo.jpg


And as some of you may know I have used those passport faces as base for new models, they are fully rigged

Left original artwork, right reconstruction using the ripped face from the game.
http://i.imgur.com/HTguH99.png


http://i.imgur.com/rFJaTAf.jpg http://i.imgur.com/aWkSTOH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/R84fSTY.jpg http://i.imgur.com/nq5piLz.jpg




http://i.imgur.com/4JaLmwX.jpg

http://www.shenmue500k.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Esppiral-nozomi-flower-shop.png


http://i.imgur.com/gSvTeSf.png http://i.imgur.com/5O1DYlz.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/78IiaW5.jpg


Every single model uses the passport faces as a base.

Sorry for the overload of images, I know it seems I always try to post my pics when this topic surfaces....

Bu t my point is, the excuse of old models and new tech incompatible is... well... BS.

So the real reason why they aren't using faces close to the originals is beyond my comprenhension...

Hi, lurker here.

This sounds like a lovely gesture. I would be more than happy to contribute to a GoFundMe.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DADt0UlUQAAFtEL.jpg:large

CEO of Just Add Water.

I don't know what that is or who he is.

They were responsible for the Oddworld series in HD (Stranger's Wrath HD, Munch's Odyssey HD etc). Probably one of the companies working on Shenmue HD (normally these kind of HD projects get worked over by more than one company, some work contracted out). Either that, or he just knows that Bluepoint are doing it or somebody else is. Either way, this is happening.

What we sure need right now is CEO's trolling about Shenmue HD...

I don't know what's going on but it's odd.