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Re: Far Cry 3

I'd say slaughtering digital animals is the only thing that seems to feel wrong.. especially the (relatively) harmless ones, like the pigs, dingos or goats. It's not like you can't play it without doing it, but it somewhat tells you that you'd enjoy the game more if you do. I wish it felt more vital, like if you had to eat to survive or something.
by Vyse Hazuky
Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:48 pm
 
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Re: Far Cry 3

I'd say slaughtering digital animals is the only thing that seems to feel wrong.. especially the (relatively) harmless ones, like the pigs, dingos or goats. It's not like you can't play it without doing it, but it somewhat tells you that you'd enjoy the game more if you do. I wish it felt more vital, like if you had to eat to survive or something.

I think thats something of an issue as well. In AC3 I liked that he said a prayer every time he killed something but it was done more to make stuff to sell stuff, not really because he had to which isn't a good thing. The critters in Far Cry 3 from what i saw my friend play, were very vicious and would attack on sight but even then it seemed like killing stuff just cause. That goes for many games tho, the wolves in Dragon's Dogma, and Skyrim (and just about any open world game) are always just angry animals.

Yeah. The turtles especially, since they cower away inside their shells, and then you go and slash them up for $10 re-sale seems quite harsh.
There are certain things here that make this a less inventive and less ambitious, from a design standpoint, game than FC2.
Anyway the fact that "winning" is synonimous with "killing" is a serious aspect but that far outgrows the problems in FC3 alone. With a game with such a high emphasis on planning your attacks and using stealth, it's strange there's no non-lethal option. Of course, things get much more intense, but it's these little things that niggle it, because they don't really make that much sense from a conceptual POV, in my opinion.
by Vyse Hazuky
Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:21 pm
 
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

With Fahrenheit, Heavy Rain and Omikron, I really think one should look at the positives rather than the negatives. We all know the storytelling is bad. But so is on a lot of other games.

The QTE was bad in Fahrenheit, but I really dug mimicking the actions of the character, like you'd do later with HR. I played it on the PC so perhaps it was better there than with the analogs. But at least he was doing something different.

I think his works, rather than being looked at like commercial products were the labour of a pretentious lunatic, if you want to call him that, but that at least tried to do things differently, tried to pick up the format of a video game, but didn't make them from a fixed genre. People get very angry at his stories, but I think that's beside the point, really.

They're not great games, but they were great experiences in game-making. I think, with all of them, with what he tried to implement, all had very novel concepts in it, that people didn't pick up because they were so unfazed by the narrative. If they were less story-heavy and drew more from the gameplay they'd be classics.
by Vyse Hazuky
Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:11 am
 
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Re: Gaming Merchandise & Collections

The art for the AC games is nothing short of excellent. I wish I could get a book just like this for Assassin's Creed: Revelations (since it has, in my eyes, the most interesting visual design work in the entire series).
There's another artbook coming out later this month covering the whole series, though it's only 170-something pages I think, so it likely won't be all that thorough. Still, I'll probably pre-order that one as well. Really glad to have this.

http://www.editionspixnlove.com/Tous-nos-ouvrages/Assassin-s-Creed-Voyages-Verites-et-Complots/flypage.tpl.html
by Vyse Hazuky
Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:46 am
 
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Re: Games With Interesting & Immersive Stories/Settings

I'm glad and even surprised you like it, OL.

As for Thief's request, I don't think you can go wrong with Red Seeds Profile/Deadly Premonition ( http://www.shenmuedojo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=39098&p=888093&hilit=red+seeds+profile#p888093 ), but if you want something a bit different, why not try two of Tale of Tales' pieces:

The Path: http://tale-of-tales.com/ThePath/index.html

or Bientôt l'Été: http://tale-of-tales.com/bientotlete/index.html

Can't get more interesting and immersive than that, imo, even if I understand it might not be what you're looking for. Still, nowt wrong in giving it a try.
by Vyse Hazuky
Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:17 am
 
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Re: Your favourite example of attention to detail in Shenmue

I guess the real breakthrough detail has to come from the gameplay.

Being able to manipulate everything, even the items in your inventory. Not so much the fact that people are different and have routines, but the fact you can talk to every single one of them (which gets even more expanded in II, with the different topics of conversation and the ability to follow them) because otherwise it wouldn't make sense, if you couldn't interact with them...)

The fact that day/night cycles tie-in with gameplay, setting your gameplay schedules of work-investigation-play, even forcing you to kill time because some place you had to visit had closed down, or you were waiting for the bus, or for it to be time to go to bed. And suddenly it seems we're not talking about a video game character but about a real person that somehow only lives through us. And without the gameplay, it could be visually rich and impressive, but it wouldn't have the the enduring qualities we can only get from interaction.
by Vyse Hazuky
Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:46 pm
 
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Re: Games With Useful & Physical Bonus Content

Can't really think of anything that would be useful apart from maps. Tokyo Bus Guide had a "guide" that was really quite useful as it had such rigid rules.

Games on USB-pen drives at least you can use them later if you saved up the content somewhere else.

Oh, and WARP's (D, D2, etc) soundnovel Real Sound: Kaze no Regret came with flower seeds for you to plant, and instructions in braille (the game was made to be played by blind people, although the Dreamcast remake had static pictures)

http://i.imgur.com/aelC3.png
http://i.imgur.com/7JePP.jpg

And of course, can't really talk about Kenji Eno without mentioning his Enemy Zero limited box
http://i.imgur.com/MFtYD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ROwBT.jpg

Only 20 were made, and delivered personally by the mad man, it had all of this:
A copy of the “regular” Enemy Zero special edition
A full set (leather outfit w/gloves, hat, tights, EO-logo badge and earrings) of the outfit worn by the companion girls at WARP’s 1996 Tokyo Game Show booth, designed by Yasushi Nirasawa
A towel embroidered with the EO logo
A model of an “enemy” corpse, complete with bodily liquid
A metallic bookmark
A flyer and ticket to an Enemy Zero art exhibit held in 1996
A set of press releases for Enemy Zero (back when these were faxed around instead of emailed)
A VHS video of Enemy Zero music clips
A large 3D lenticular sheet
A set of stickers
An Enemy Zero T-shirt
A replica of the gun Laura uses in the game, again designed by Nirasawa
Actual design documents used in developing the game
Floppy disks, envelopes, and paper bags with the WARP logo
A Sega Saturn-stamped CD-R (contents unknown)

There was also the REZ Trance Vibrator, which allegedly added to the experience.

But again, useful?

I'll try and think of more.
by Vyse Hazuky
Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:52 am
 
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Re: What Nationality Are You?

I like to think of myself as a congolese yorkshireman, doing my black market day trading in the mornings, training some rebels after lunch, having a nice cup of locally harvested tea, and taking some amateur 'faces of death' pictures before dinner, so I can build up me wages. So I'd speak broken french, kikongo, swahili, english and I could do scottish and scouse impressions. "Sumdeh"..
by Vyse Hazuky
Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:34 am
 
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Re: Review The Last Game You Beat

^Î have only played the demo, but from that and whatever else I've seend about it, it looks to me like, as you say, an interactive adventure. Now, don't get me wrong, as there's nothing wrong with that, but to me, after seeing so many scathing reviews of stuff like Heavy Rain or Gadget: Past as Future, and games of its ilk in the past, I can't understand how they can praise it on this level.

Moreso as from a gameplay point of view Telltale seems to be regressing from, for instance, their Sam & Max games, which were proper adventure games. As someone who couldn't care less about the WD tv series or comic series, I really don't see the appeal beyond the fans, much like the other Telltale games like Jurassic Park and Back to the Future.

Am I right?
by Vyse Hazuky
Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:28 am
 
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this is?

It's non-news.

What it says is that in issue 226, which is out now, they said that: "SEGA is gradually remaking their previous gen games, and the Shenmue games are naturally on top of everyone's list, including ours (the magazine's). We're looking forward to see Ryo again, and we predict we'll see him again in 2013".

I mean, sure, anyone can say that. Rubbish piece of article.
by Vyse Hazuky
Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:14 am
 
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Re: Best 3DS/DS games

Oh yeah! If you're in America, get Retro Game Challenge!

I keep forgetting it because I don't have it (it didn't come out in Europe, and I haven't got around to importing it yet), but I'm sure it'll bring a smile to your face
by Vyse Hazuky
Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:16 am
 
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Re: Last Game/System/Peripheral You Bought

Yesterday I found a game I had searched for a long time, and which I thought I'd never get, not even paying top dollar, as I absolutely just couldn't find it anywhere. Then, as I was scrounging around online, there it was, a sealed copy, which I managed to haggle down to half-price (15euro + shipping). I still can't quite believe it, and I probably won't until it arrives. Hope I haven't jinxed it now.

The game is

http://i.imgur.com/pA7iS.jpg
by Vyse Hazuky
Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:20 pm
 
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this is?

I mean, the british magazine are fine in the way that they had to answer something to the reader who asked them that. But for a french website to hop on to it like it had any sort of relevance is completely baffling.
by Vyse Hazuky
Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:32 am
 
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Re: Shenmue Dojo Game's of the Year

^They say "Nemesis" is still the best one, but I think the older ones, Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes were better.
by Vyse Hazuky
Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:19 am
 
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Re: Last Game/System/Peripheral You Bought

Bring on the 'Thunder'!...
by Vyse Hazuky
Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:32 am
 
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Re: Last Game/System/Peripheral You Bought

^Is it actually about a little "uplifting" Taito series? Say no more!
by Vyse Hazuky
Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:40 pm
 
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Re: Review The Last Game You Beat

The Sea Will Claim Everything (2012)
http://i.imgur.com/fc1Ts.jpg
This is an adventure game where you travel in a fixed perspective from screen to screen. Right at the start you're made aware that you, the character, aren't part of this world (the Land of Dreams) but instead get to see it through a screen. Therefore, the player-character doesn't have a personality, as you never ask questions directly, but choose answers from a list of topics as you talk to the dozens upon dozens of characters. The art-style, like in Kiratzkes earlier works is all hand-made drawings. It may not be to everyone's liking, but the sheer oddity and distinctiveness of it all, the bold use of colours you seldom get to see in games, make it a really original experience.
As for the gameplay, one can say it revolves almost, if not entirely around fetchquests. Of course you still have to think where you might find, or whom you might ask for certain items, and some of them will take a bit of time and skill to decipher. Later on there's also potion-crafting. The game is never hard as even though you rack up a really big number of things to do, they're all noted down on your journal so you don't forget it.
The big thing about the game though, is the sheer quantity of text you can go through, as every character (and there are really dozens of them) has a lot to say, painting you a very vivid picture of the world you're looking at. While talking to so many, and visiting so many places (later on you get a boat and get to go to various islands, all of them unique), the one trouble is sometimes remembering the names of the characters or what they wanted, but that ends up being a smaller detail.
The writing per se, is also surprisingly good, considering this is an indie game with a very short staff. In the hundreds of pages of text the game probably has I did not note any sort of grammatical mistake or miswording. Furthermore the game is peppered with little nods to literature, current events and (of course) Monty Python, but all in the subtlest of manners.
Finally, the music combines greatly with the settings. Even though it's basically the same in every area, it never feels grating (because there are a lot of different areas, and because hearing a new song is a big part of the feeling of discovery when you reach a new area).
The story is revealed gradually but its merits lie in the fact that, while the environment and characters are so otherwordly, the story isn't. In fact, it's the most current story I've read this year, and ends with a very positive message, which games seldom do.
It's also a very decent length for an independent adventure, and one who's going for $5 at that...
A demo is avaiable here: http://landsofdream.net/games/the-sea-will-claim-everything/demo/


The Shivah (2006)
http://i.imgur.com/L0t3w.gif
I had got this game ages ago, but troubleshooting games from Adventure Game Studio is always a pain, so I only sat to beat it now.
The main draw of the game, of course, is that you play a rabbi, Rabbi Stone, who somehow sees himself in the middle of a murdercase.
The gameplay is classic Lucas Arts style, although there's no interaction with objects. You mainly conduct your investigations through questioning (and there are a couple of instances that can cause you to get a "game over"), which almost always includes a "rabbinical response". spoiler: Later on, in good old fashioned Monkey Island/Full Throttle style, there's even a bout of fisticuffs for the sharp tongues.
The puzzles themselves are often done through logging in a computer and searching for what you need (being that you need to figure out specific passwords, etc). The game boasts very few locations and characters so you can get stuck if suddenly you can't ask anything new or can't figure out what you need to do. On the other hand the game is very short, and can be finished in an hour (and much less with a walkthrough).
The soundtrack is quite good, with jazzy and jewish songs (israeli noir would probably be the apt description), but the voiceacting is the worst part. Thankfully the Rabbi himself, whom you'll hear the most, is the best one.
All in all, a very decent Lucas Arts-style game, with an interesting premise that emcompasses all the rabbinical honour code in its story. Being so short, the story ends up a little disappointing, but it presents some very interesting and certainly unique issues.
A demo is avaiable here: http://www.wadjeteyegames.com/the-shivah.html


A Grain of Truth (2012)
http://i.imgur.com/OGwLa.jpg
For a free browser game, this one reeks professionalism. Being the labour of two brothers, it really feels at home with the so called "modern adventure game" crowd. It presents a very dreamlike world, in a japanese style, dealing with floating stones, cloud gatherers and the like. Its puzzles mainly concern finding specific items hidden away, which would be a bit of bore were it not for a button that displays, for about 2 seconds, all the "clickable" spots.
Sadly, while the world is beautiful and soothing, there's something amiss. The characters you interact with are mainly dull and unremarkable. The puzzles, too classic and unoriginal. Its main original gameplay comes from the ability to learn words so you can use them later in a "fill-the-blanks" conversation. Problem is if you miss one you have to search frantically for what you're missing, all over the world.
The story in itself isn't anything to write home about, although midly enjoyable. The cast of characters is very small and just don't reveal enough of themselves for it to be worthwhile.
Overall, while the production values and graphical and stylistic detail is incredible for a free game, what lies beneath is a very undistinguished game. Still, it's free.
http://www.zamolski.com/agot/


Proteus (2012)
http://i.imgur.com/11xaE.jpg
Less of a game than an experience, Proteus is a delight to indulge in.
Without further explanation, you open your eyes in the middle of the ocean, with an island barely visible in the distance. Without nothing else around, you decide to reach for its shores. And thus, slowly but surely, silence grows into music. Thus you realise that as you explore this island your auditory senses get assaulted with little rhythms and musical lines - a veritable light synthesizer. While just going around a very decent-sized island as you hear the different voicings that come from rocks, trees or castles would be good enough, you start to realise the sun is setting, and in the night things change. You see fireflies, then perhaps some clouds will gather and rain will trickle down. And in the morning, rabbits (or frogs?) will hop around for you to follow, and you've been there for half an hour, creating a symphony, just by walking and exploring.
The only action you can take is actually sitting down and enjoying the world around you and, when you've had enough, you just close your eyes back again. It's a wonderful experience, and a wonderful musical toy.
http://www.visitproteus.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NFAiGF73_U
by Vyse Hazuky
Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:14 am
 
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Re: Sega Developed Game Lists

If you put in Ecco, you should put in Kolibri, since they're made by the same team.
by Vyse Hazuky
Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:20 am
 
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

^Funny, same here. But on the other hand it left me with a bitter taste. Far Cry 2 was a far superior piece of work.
But I understand how this one was more popular and perhaps, more fun to play as well. And that's as much as you can ask of a game, I guess.
by Vyse Hazuky
Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am
 
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Re: Last Game/System/Peripheral You Bought

Looks like I didn't jinx it afterall!
Image

Man, I can't tell you how good it felt to open one of these big PC game boxes after all these years. DVD boxes are just too plastic.

Also got some used adventure games.
Image
by Vyse Hazuky
Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:37 pm
 
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Re: Another Competitor Enters the Ring - Valve Making Consol

I was more interested in Ouya, for being developer-oriented and having a low price, but I fear it'll be as riddled with lack of quality games as most other platforms.

The steambox seems irrelevant in the sense that most people that have an HDTV already have a computer as well. Valve seems to have a good business sense but I don't see it here.
by Vyse Hazuky
Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:54 am
 
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Re: Shenmue: Photo of Father

^Start What's Shenmue and find Mr Yukawa. Then, open the disc tray and insert Shenmue II. Load up a save near the end. You should have a "SEGA Confidential" tape and tape recorder on your inventory and stand under the shenmue tree and play the tape for 3 minutes. A portal appears, you step in: Shenmue III.
by Vyse Hazuky
Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:05 am
 
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Re: Pro Wrestling Official Topic

Speaking of which, anyone watched Wrestle Kingdom? Another classic Tana vs Okada, and Nakamura vs Sakuraba and Suzuki vs Nagata were absolutely brutal.

The NOAH Global League final of KENTA vs Sugiura was also incredible. Very, very, very stiff.
by Vyse Hazuky
Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:09 am
 
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

SEGATA: Maybe I could point out the likes of this year's Dis4ya and Mainichi (which dealt with changing gender) or The Kite (domestic violence).

All three had different gameplay and presentation, yet all made their points across. Or even the games from Tale of Tales, so detached are they from genres and preconceived notions they're hard to classify and analyse.

Bottom line: Make it happen. Being an indie developer is hard as it is, but you must believe in the power of your vision. If you make something you're proud of, people will recognize its value. If back out of making it because you're afraid people won't understand it, well, at least give us the chance to. Plus, you know, marketing's half the battle (or more : P
by Vyse Hazuky
Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:12 pm
 
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Re: Review The Last Game You Beat

Guilded Youth (2012)

http://i.imgur.com/uxNYp.png

This is a short and sweet text adventure. You're a kid who, with his BBS RPG guild pals, goes on a "real" adventure of their own in an abandoned mansion, in what is mainly a story about the follies and nostalgia of youth (if the retro look and feel weren't enough of a clue). Despite being a text adventure it does contain visual cues in the shape of your inventory and avatar. When you log in to the BBS, the display changes to a sort of Commodore-like presentation. The game, however, is extremely easy, making this on the level of little more than interactive fiction (there are very few commands, locations and objects). It does give you different endings depending on a final choice, allowing you to skip through to there, after you finish, so you can read the others. Nonetheless it is fairly entertaining and well-written, and well worth the time. It certainly has charisma and interesting characters. In all a well made short story.

http://i.imgur.com/3UVFd.png

It can be played here: http://nomediakings.org/guildedyouth/


The Kite (2012)

http://i.imgur.com/MHiXv.jpg

This is a short point & click made in Ukraine. It certainly feels distinctive, especially due to its original art style and very rough translation. As such, the dialogue is exceedingly broken. You can guess that perhaps the original version would be more graceful, but still, this is a game that tries to impose its message, that of domestic violence and its consequences on children, in the rawest fashion possible. As such you play a mother who (for the most part) searches for her son (whose kite, from the title, is his favourite toy). While the art style is fresh and original and the score (all "Ludwig van") is quite adequate, the gameplay just didn't seem to click. While some of the puzzles were certainly interesting from a visual perspective, mechanically they just felt tremendously silly or even embarrassing in such a dark story. Perhaps the intention was to drive home the point of utter desperation but for all the sense of urgency the mother seems to exhude in the need to find her child they end up feeling extremely mechanical and contrived, to what should have been a more emotional response. On the other hand, the game is very short, taking between half an hour to an hour to finish depending on how well you do at puzzle-solving. Worth it for trying to tackle something different, but could certainly use more polish.

http://i.imgur.com/yQACX.jpg

It can be played here: http://www.indiedb.com/games/the-kite/downloads/the-kite-english-v12e (Desura)


Bientôt l'été / It's Nearly Summer (2012)

http://i.imgur.com/u6iNg.jpg

The latest game from Tale of Tales is less of a game, like Vanitas and The Graveyard , and more of an exercise in reflexion. Right from the start its starting menu is a giveaway to how different this experience is, as you find yourself zooming through the stars and planets as a mysterious counter goes on and on. You get to decide the gender of your avatar (the man looking straight out of "Assassin's Creed" and the woman a "Laura" -lookalike) and you find yourself on a beach, looking out to sea. You're encouraged to walk along the seaside, and as you do, words, phrases pop out. The beach however, is not endless, and as you reach its matrix-like wall, you'll see the avatar of the opposite sex looking at you. Furthermore you can experience a sort of vision if you close your eyes facing one of the objects that might be in the beach (anything from a dead dog to a tennis court) and, when you tire of this, there's a cafe where you'll meet other players. Here, you'll use chess pieces (which you collect after each vision) to communicate. This is surely the best part of the game, as not only are you attempting to communicate with this other player using an avatar, but at the same time trying to understand more about the respective relationships. The meaning of this detachment and layering of communication is central to the unraveling of the mysteries in this game.
This is, in the end, a game about relationships (or a relationship), with, certainly, no straight answers, but rather an attempted dissection. The simulated reality, the communication-based chess game, and the necessary introspection are the basis of this experience. From here, one makes as one wilt. On this basis, it's probably the purest and most thought provoking multimedia art form I've encountered. (Meaning any sort of entertainment was chucked out the door!) Unfortunately, since it has hardly any engaging gameplay or narrative it's very hard to recommend if your mind is not set up for it. One way or another it's best experienced for just a couple of sessions at a time.
On the technical side, it is certainly a treat, with a glorious day and night cycle with great use of colour, changing tides and very realistic animations. The music, while minimalistic is spot-on, and is by Belgian composer Walter Hus .

http://i.imgur.com/QNdJw.jpg

http://tale-of-tales.com/bientotlete/
by Vyse Hazuky
Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:55 am
 
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Re: Your favourite boxart

Image

Image


Wish I could find a bigger pic of The Scheme
by Vyse Hazuky
Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:05 am
 
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Next time I play through the Assassin's Creed series, I'm gonna make it a challenge... Stealth only. If I get caught, I restart. Unless it's completely unavoidable. Still, I was lied to by the press and the public that it's a stealth game, so I'm gonna force it into one. Because I'm just that awesome.

That's what disappointed me the most, at first, about the game. That and platforming, both of which are so casual they really irritated me, as there was so much potential with it. It was only later that I learned to appreciate the series for what it was rather than for what it wasn't.
by Vyse Hazuky
Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:32 am
 
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

I'm sure someone must have posted this here before but I'd only seen it now. Hilarious.

Image
by Vyse Hazuky
Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:09 pm
 
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

So... this exists.

ImageImage
by Vyse Hazuky
Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:40 am
 
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Re: Great Videogame Music

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek0uvGtG7YY[/youtube]
by Vyse Hazuky
Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:00 am
 
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Re: Shenmue Picture Extravaganza!

Having buried Lan Di the previous week, 40-year old Ryo Hazuki takes his dog for walksies around his home. And thus the saga--- ends.

Image
by Vyse Hazuky
Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:06 am
 
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Re: What movie are you watching right now?

Four Lions

Funnier and better than I thought it'd be. Can't wait for the next Chris Morris project
by Vyse Hazuky
Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:58 pm
 
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

http://i.imgur.com/LcVod.jpg http://i.imgur.com/2nj6k.jpg

Looks kind of like the gang from Jet Set are fans of Shenmue.

http://i.imgur.com/nDwPm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/XNCW9.jpg

More:
http://i.imgur.com/Gythw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dPsoa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gFpO0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ClwL4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vrYcY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vYO9O.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AfaJY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PUVgG.jpg
by Vyse Hazuky
Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:08 pm
 
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