Grand Theft Auto V

[Let's Get Sweaty]

My copy arrived today after all, when Tesco had said it was due tomorrow. I only intended to run the installation this evening, but annoyingly it thrust me straight into the beginning of the game once installation was complete. There was no need for that. So I've now played through until the first opportunity to save, whilst not in the best mood for it because I wasn't intending to start it till tomorrow.

you poor thing, you should sue them for mental trauma

I fully intend to, now that they're not short of a pretty penny.

[Thief]

Terms like rape culture trivialize the individual male, and make the assumption that, given the right circumstances, any man would rape -- and as a man with moral obligation, I find that wrong. I do not believe rape culture can exist and I think the term is irrelevant.

The objectification of woman is bad -- sure -- but its representation in media is no more bad than anything else. Individuals are responsible for their own actions. To suggest that media is to blame or is the cause of rape is ridiculous.

[Segata Sanshiro Jr.]

Terms like rape culture trivialize the individual male, and make the assumption that, given the right circumstances, any man would rape -- and as a man with moral obligation, I find that wrong. I do not believe rape culture can exist and I think the term is irrelevant.

A. I wasn't limiting this to men. Do you feel threatened as a man by this?
B. Rape Culture exists. If you don't believe it can you're closing your eyes to reality because every time a drunk girl is passed out, gets raped, and everyone around her pretend nothing happened, you ain't entered the twilight zone. There are countries that don't recognize rape as a crime. BTW did you know that during the Rwandan Genocides Hutu males would often take Tutsi females and rape them? The "reasoning" behind it was that Hutus were superior and were "subjugating" Tutsis. Guess what, thats a real world example of rape culture.

The objectification of woman is bad -- sure -- but its representation in media is no more bad than anything else. Individuals are responsible for their own actions. To suggest that media is to blame or is the cause of rape is ridiculous.

Playing GTA V isn't going to make someone walk out and rape the first person they see, but the commonality of objectified women culminates in women being objectified.

Missed this part? If you objectify something enough in enough sources then it becomes socially acceptable for objectification. GTA isn't the reason people rape, but the core reason that happens in objectification, and if its objectifying then guess what, its contributing, even if its just in a small way.

[Thief]

First of all let's try not to personally attack me as it's irrelevant to the argument. Anyway, you may not have been limiting it to men but most (almost all) rapes are committed by men (either towards woman or men). It can not be denied that woman who commit rape are in the extreme minority. Regardless, what I was implying was that a true rape culture could not exist because not everyone would be fine with it -- would commit rape. I know this to be true because I would not commit rape.

I did not miss your post earlier, I just do not agree with it. Any "damage" that may be as the result of the representation of objectification is not justification for the disregard for freedom of expression.

[Segata Sanshiro Jr.]

First of all let's try not to personally attack me as it's irrelevant to the argument.

Its completely relevant, the prerequisite for seeing that this happens is realizing it exists.

Regardless, what I was implying was that a true rape culture could not exist because not everyone would be fine with it -- would commit rape. I know this to be true because I would not commit rape.

So everyone in the entire world not wanting to rape people means that within a number of cultures and in everyday social situations rape is never views as trivial?

"You" are completely relevant to this conversation. If "You" are the reason "True Rape Culture" doesn't exist, then "you" are also the reason it can. Saying something can't exist (despite the fact that it absolutely does in a whole mess of situations) is trivializing by trying to deny whats real. Put as conditions as you want on it, in the end its still something that exists even in this country even if you're not part of it.

I did not miss your post earlier, I just do not agree with it. Any "damage" that may be as the result of the representation of objectification is not justification for the disregard for freedom of expression.

Yes it is, if I want to express my anger by stabbing someone I'd imagine they'd want to stop me. I can walk into a Mosque and yell "I hate Muslims". I can stab the next person I see and I can make a game about why all Jews should be killed. These are all expressions of varying natures, but all are damaging.

But I shouldn't, because I should know better. Sometimes expression needs to be limited and we need to sacrifice our own freedom for a greater good. Even then, this isn't a case of an artist not being able to do what he wants to do, but instead being unobservant.

I can't really fault any woman for wanting to defend themselves from a mainstream product that is basically saying "women are ok for fucking, but thats about it". Is that the only thing in the game, no, but it is a part and thats a part that really pisses some people off and they've got every right to be.

[Thief]

Attacking me instead of my argument is an abusive ad hominem fallacy. This sentence [If "You" are the reason "True Rape Culture" doesn't exist, then "you" are also the reason it can.] makes no sense. Murder is not the same thing as freedom of speech/expression.

[Segata Sanshiro Jr.]

The idea is that the reason this thing exists is because people don't recognize it. If you don't recognize it, you're the reason it exists. That is the argument in itself.

If you want to get existential, murder is an expression, as is being vocal about racist views. How is chauvinism any different from racism when it comes to expression?

[Thief]

To use that argument you're already presupposing that it does exist. It's circular logic.

Your second response about murder quickly derailed as you changed the subject from murder as expression to chauvinism vs racism.

Again, murder is not the same thing as free speech.

[Segata Sanshiro Jr.]

To use that argument you're already presupposing that it does exist. It's circular logic.

http://www.academia.edu/1594955/Rape_su ... n_genocide
http://www.newsday.com/opinion/oped/kau ... -1.6089433

Tell those people it doesn't. Tell them that there must have been some fault of their that they were put in that position. tell them that culture can't trivialize the act. We can argue logic circles all day long, the point is when you objectify women this is what happens.

Your second response about murder quickly derailed as you changed the subject from murder as expression to chavanism vs racism.

Again, murder is not the same thing as free speech.

So offer a rebuttal on chauvinism vs racism? Sure I'll concede the point that murder is not free speech, should people be free to use hate speech and be protected in the same way?

[Thief]

Should people be free to use hate speech and be protected in the same way?

Absolutely.

[Segata Sanshiro Jr.]

Should people be free to use hate speech and be protected in the same way?

Absolutely.

really

Attacking me instead of my argument is an abusive ad hominem fallacy..

seems like you didn't like it much before.

[Thief]

For the sake of the argument, I accused you of using an ad hominem fallacy. It has nothing to do with your freedom of speech, you're free to do that if you want. However, if you do, you're not making a good argument.

[St. Elmo's Fire]

I've not played GTA5 yet, and not a great deal of '4, maybe the higher res graphics make it different, but none of the other GTA games have made me want to beat up or rape women. Hell, running over pedestrians is something I'd sometimes like to do, but it still only happens in games...

Maybe I'm just weird like that?

[QWERTY]

Segata get off your high horse you clown.

[Axm]

Pretty great game so far. I like the characters and the world is pretty nice.