Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby ShenSun » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:33 am

For all you persona 4 arena fans. Check this out

http://personanation.blogspot.co.uk/

pretty sweet site
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby Henry Spencer » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:01 am

So yeah, game looks like a mixed bag. No Kaneko!

New Trailer:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXH5WRP36fA[/youtube]

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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby OL » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:24 am

Looks like it'll have an incredible sense of atmosphere. And I actually really like that despite the graphics mostly being 3D, the enemies are dones as sprites. That's cool. Looks like the gameplay will all be really sound. And I laughed when I saw the floating head of the proprietor of the Cathedral of Shadows in 3D Dot Game Heroes style.
Henry Spencer wrote:No Kaneko!

Actually, I'm not sure that's true. Look at the character portraits that start around 2:00 minutes in. They still strike me as Kaneko's style. It's obviously not the same style that he's had before, but it's been changing consistently over the years anyway. Just look at the change in artwork from SMT to Persona 2 to (especially) Raidou Kuzunoha 2. It's always been changing, and I think this is just the newest form his artstyle has take on. Pay attention to the eyes. They still look pretty distinctly Kaneko. And if it's actually not him, then someone is doing a good job of emulating the attitude his work often has.
The artstyle in the cinema scenes looked a little different (likely re-drawn by someone else based on his designs), but those in-game character portraits still seemed like his work to me.
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby Dorian » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:32 am

Henry Spencer wrote: So yeah, game looks like a mixed bag. No Kaneko!

New Trailer:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXH5WRP36fA[/youtube]

Go ahead and kill me, but I don't consider that to be a true SMT. The game looks decent, but it doesn't look like a true MegaTen. It has this strange imposter aura to it (it doesn't help that half of it looks like a Flash game with generic anime design). I couldn't disagree more with OL about the 'emulating' part. It's actually awful how this game tries to imitate Kaneko's style.

Sadly, "No Kaneko" is not surprising as he has been unappreciated in ATLUS for years now.

To clarify: I do not hate this game because it's not even out yet and I have no idea how it's going to play in the end. I do, however, hate the fact that it does not look like a true SMT game.
Last edited by Dorian on Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby Segata Sanshiro Jr. » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:00 pm

I'm with Spence on this. I hate the artwork, looks really generic anime, it looks even worse then Adol's celceta sea of trees art. The game itself looks really interesting though.

reminds me of the Castlevania art for Soma.
Why have this:
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When you can have this:
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby Henry Spencer » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:42 pm

^Pretty much. I'm honestly surprised that Orange thinks that looks like Kaneko, like at all. It doesn't. In the least. It's actually Masayuki Doi; the artist for the Trauma Centre series, definitely. And yeah, his art is fine there since he isn't trying to do an (frankly terrible) imitation of another artist in those games. I wouldn't mind the change in art style, as much, if Doi was employing a new style instead of imitation. I'm not a fan of the actual designs of them either...like Segata said, they're very modern anime-like.

I honestly think at this stage that Kaneko has either: A) left Atlus (you've got to be shitting me if you think Kaneko wouldn't work on a mainline SMT title). Or B) Atlus has other projects up there sleeve, such as a new Devil Summoner game, which Kaneko is heading the art on. I so hope it's the latter, since the thought of Doi simply replacing Kaneko just sucks. I'm all for giving the new guy a job, but shoving the lead artist of the series away like that to make room for the new guy, (Kaneko has been at the company since the beginning) is kind of nasty. Or maybe Kaneko flat out refused to help make the game, not liking what the team has in mind? Guess we'll never know. Either way, major blow to the series, to be sure.

As far the game goes, I like that they're trying to strive for the best of both worlds by combining both third person exploration and first person combat. I'd even go as far as to say that the environments look absolutely incredible. The music is also brilliant. A shame they're cutting corners with the certain factors when it comes to presentation; animations of the demons (static one moment then massive shaking, the next, guess I'll get used to it). I'm a bit worried about the storyline being really anime inspired at this stage. No offence to Persona, they're great too, but I like to draw the line between the mainline SMT and Persona, it would be the same if Persona suddenly changed dramatically. They're both great series, but ultimately different.

I'm sure I'll like the game, Atlus have never let me down, I really like the settings and music, but at this stage, it'll take a lot for me to love it.

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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby OL » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:05 pm

Henry Spencer wrote: ^Pretty much. I'm honestly surprised that Orange thinks that looks like Kaneko, like at all. It doesn't. In the least. It's actually Masayuki Doi; the artist for the Trauma Centre series, definitely.


Image

Kaneko on the left, Doi on the right (a grab from the trailer).
I was apparently wrong, but aside from the new stuff being a little smoother around the edges and the characters actually having some color in their cheeks, it's not hard to imagine Kaneko's style possibly evolving into something along the lines of Doi's stuff. Artist's styles constantly change and evolve as time goes on.
I was a comic fan for years and years, and saw this all the time. Joe Madureira's style once looked like this and eventually evolved into this. It tends to happen, and we've even seen it with Kaneko himself. Easiest example would be to look at the Raidou Kuzunoha art from the first game versus the second one. Even in the small gap between those games, he managed to alter his style a bit. Look at his original stuff from SMT2 and then look at his work for Strange Journey, and without prior knowledge, you might not even realize it was the same artist.
Be surprised if you like, but despite being wrong, my theorizing that this may have been Kaneko wasn't quite as out-there as you seem to think. Doi's actual design sense is clearly nowhere near Kaneko's, but the slight similarity in technique and form is likely the reason he got the job to begin with.

EDIT: And to clarify, I'm just talking about the in-game character portraits, which I think look pretty good. The cinema scenes look like shite. I agree that the anime style is a little overboard in those parts. Looks too much like a low-budget anime.
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby Dorian » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:29 pm

Henry Spencer wrote:I honestly think at this stage that Kaneko has either: A) left Atlus (you've got to be shitting me if you think Kaneko wouldn't work on a mainline SMT title). Or B) Atlus has other projects up there sleeve, such as a new Devil Summoner game, which Kaneko is heading the art on. I so hope it's the latter, since the thought of Doi simply replacing Kaneko just sucks. I'm all for giving the new guy a job, but shoving the lead artist of the series away like that to make room for the new guy, (Kaneko has been at the company since the beginning) is kind of nasty. Or maybe Kaneko flat out refused to help make the game, not liking what the team has in mind? Guess we'll never know. Either way, major blow to the series, to be sure.

ATLUS is very nasty internally. It's the company that destroyed not only one of its own founders, but a guy who's THE creator of Shin Megami Tensei at the same time. Kaneko was treated like trash ever since Okada was forced to leave. There were giving him the smallest of budgets and small teams. It's a miracle that he was able to make games at all, let alone such classics like PS2's Devil Summoners and 'the true SMTIV' in the form of Strange Journey. They didn't even ask him to design new stuff. They either used stuff from other artists or simply reused his old work. His creative vision was not being shared by ATLUS suits at all for almost a decade now, and it got really rough after Index Holdings stepped in. I have no idea what happened to him, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with working on a grand secret project. Fortunately for him, he is not only a genius artist, but also a living legend. He doesn't need to worry about making shovelware. To be honest, making games seemed more like a hobby of his.
Henry Spencer wrote:I'm sure I'll like the game, Atlus have never let me down, I really like the settings and music, but at this stage, it'll take a lot for me to love it.

I'm not sure I'm going to like the game. ATLUS has rarely let me down, but this time something really seems off. If it wasn't SMTIV, I wouldn't mind getting yet another dark jRPG from ATLUS, but since it is SMTIV, I can't help the feeling that we're seeing the end of this franchise as we knew and loved it.

The gameplay shown in that trailer also didn't impress, to be honest. It's very similar to Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine, which I hated with a passion despite many attempts to get into it. There's also a little bit of oldschool SMT bits thrown in, but if Nostalgia Filter is applied, the whole things falls flat on its face as a really cheap mix of MMORPG and the SNES classics.

@OL: I'm shocked you can't see the difference. The comparison you provided just proves it's not Kaneko anymore. Kaneko's style didn't change at all over the years. I was actually surprised to see how similar and consistent everything is throughout all of his career.
Last edited by Dorian on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby Henry Spencer » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:33 pm

I don't want to keep going on like a negative nancy, but those terrible anime artworks will be the cutscenes of the game. So it's not like it won't be a factor into the presentation of the game.

And I still don't see how Doi's art is anywhere near Kaneko's, not on quality (I actually think Doi is good; not when he's imitating Soejima or Kaneko, though) but in similarity. Doi isn't using the same techniques at all, he's just sort of trying to imitate (badly), whilst also trying to do his own style at the same time, and it is pretty jarring to me. Doi's art doesn't try to convey the same disturbed look on the character's faces (look at the "villain" of SMT4, he doesn't look disturbed or anything of the sort, he just looks plain evil), look at the Demi-Fiend and compare him to the main protagonist of SMT4; it's a stark difference. Night and day, really. I also miss Kaneko's vibrant colour palette vs. Doi's monotonous colours. The big close ups of the demons make them look ugly, too. Aesthetics of the series are part and parcel of why I like this series so much, if the artist is gone, it won't be long till I stop giving a shit about it.

As far as Kaneko goes, the guy's gone from Atlus, no doubt about it. It's an end of an era, but it's no use crying over spilt milk, the damage is done and I've got to live with it. Oh well.

It's to me, like the soul of Shin Megami Tensei is gone now. It'll more than likely be a great fun game to play, but the themes will probably be shallow (by the looks of the anime inspired storyline and cliche characters; time travelling, oooh, that isn't overdone in JRPGs, or anything; the only positive will be the variety of beautiful environments we'll get) and the art mediocre.

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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby Dorian » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:46 pm

Doi or not (the art is so generic that it can by any of thousands of mangakas), the art direction is just soulless. I have no idea who actually makes the game itself so it may or may not play great, but it sure doesn't look great, and it has nothing to do with hardware. The phenomenon of SMT was in large part based on the distinctive art direction. In the past, ATLUS already tried making 'cheap' SMTs without Kaneko and it didn't work until Persona 3. This time it's so dramatic that I get the feeling they don't care about their old fans anymore. This game seems like something made for an entirely new generation of gamers. The classic bits seem to be thrown in just as a way to strengthen the hardcore nature of the franchise.
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby OL » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:49 pm

Dorian wrote:@OL: I'm shocked you can't see the difference. The comparison you provided just proves it's not Kaneko anymore.


You're missing my point. I can easily see the difference. My point is that we haven't seen anything new from Kaneko in a while, and his style could easily change, as artist's styles tend to do. Doi's isn't so radically different from Kaneko's that Kaneko could never do anything that looks kind of like that.

We're talking about a guy whose style once looked like this:


Image

And eventually evolved into this:

Image

The idea that his art could eventually evolve into something that looks like this:
Image
...isn't as ridiculous as you guys seem to think.

Sure, there are artists whose styles never change, but Kaneko is clearly not one of them, so I'm actually shocked that you'd be so very shocked.
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby Segata Sanshiro Jr. » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:51 pm

Maybe I'm just an old fogie, but i like the first one.
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby Henry Spencer » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:52 pm

@OL: So what you're saying is that Kaneko art looks like mediocre anime? Or that Kaneko's art devolved? :/
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby OL » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:55 pm

That it could have become like that. We haven't seen anything since Strange Journey. I'm not being negative about Kaneko's art, I'm saying that it may have changed by this point for all we know (since his style tends to do that), and that's the only reason I misinterpreted Doi's stuff as maybe being Kaneko's. It was a guess, based on past changes that he's applied to his art style.

Segata Sanshiro Jr. wrote:Maybe I'm just an old fogie, but i like the first one.


Same, actually. I like the more "hand-made" look of it, as opposed to the obvious computer coloring.
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Re: Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series

Postby Dorian » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:57 pm

It's actually very consistent. You're not looking at the style of Kaneko. You're looking at the style of an era. You are comparing SMTII's Hero from the SNES era to SMTII's Hero from the PSX remake. Kaneko didn't change his style - he just made two different versions of the same design because of two different eras. He was trying to update the 90s look and make it more CG-like to synch with the PSX era. That's not changing style. That just shows how good he is.

The SMTIV artists is just clueless as to how the game should look like. It's like the art wanted to be SMT, Persona and No. 6 at the same time. Things just doesn't work that way.
Last edited by Dorian on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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