Grand Theft Auto V

[Bluecast]

Maybe it's like Kids to a lesser degree. In games kids don't exist unless they are saving the world or complete dicks in games you can kill everything but them..or evil themselves or a plot device like LOU. Darksiders at the begining when it's the end of the world. No kids. Skyrim they are creepy dickholes. La Noire they don't exist.

EXACTLY. Kids exist, why are they not in games. One of my favorite things about Star Ocean 1 is that the world had memorable kids, even ones that it KILLS. I wanna play MGS5 BECAUSE it has little African kids as soldiers. I wanna see how that gets handled.

I don't know if the game is any good but thought this is a good idea. Play as a child in a horror game. Kids don't ave to be bastard chosen ones to save the world or be evil or be NPC dicks. They can just be normal

phpBB [video]

[Axm]

You guys still going on about the story? Ive never found them that interesting to care about. The entire game is immature, story especially. Just take it for what it is.

Gonna pick this thing up in a few hours. Looks fun

[OL]

I think it's perfectly fine to hate the games they make, and also perfectly fine to criticize them for it, but their content is their own, regardless of my expectations or wants. Would I think it's ok that the only time you ride with a woman is if you're trying to fuck her? Yes -- it's also stupid but there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

Art is an extension of the person who creates.

I was actually about to post something very similar earlier.
Everyone has their own voice. I hate this idea that there's a "correct" way to do things in the arts, be it writing, filmmaking, painting, or whatever.
Picasso painted profile shots that somehow show both eyes. It might not make sense, but is he wrong for doing it? Would I call him a shitty artist for it?
I would not.
I'm not calling Dan Houser a brilliant writer by any means, but I do take issue with the idea that if he doesn't adhere to the desires of a certain audience, that somehow makes him "bad" at what he does. There's no one right way to do things in the writing world, and I think it's a bit silly for someone to demand content that the writer never set out to deal with in the first place.

[St. Elmo's Fire]

Yep. I agreed with points from both sides before, but now people are just getting a tad....arsey...? I just wanna play the damned game, don't care if I play as a gay black Italian Muslim or whatever.

[Riku Rose]

It's not even like men come off well in these games. The women may all be strippers or hookers but all the guys are psychos or murderers. If a guy's a nerd in GTA he doesn't just like nerdy things the guy sits in his mothers basement and is fat. If a guy is from another country he is usually a stereotype to an extreme level. Not a single character in GTA isn't slimy or dirty in some way and comes out not looking good, Men and women.

Anyway I'm going to go and shoot some prostitutes.

[mue 26]

It would make a difference. Lara Croft and Nathan Drake are adventurers, but switch them out in their respective games and you won't get the same thing.

That's because they have different personalities. Were Lara a lovable roguish treasure hunter with a penchant for quips, then yes, it would be the same thing. Changing one's gender doesn't change their personality. It might change that character's experience of society, but how many games portray a woman's experience of society in any meaningful way? Saints Row sure doesn't and nor do earlier Tomb Raider games, thus sex type has no significant impact on the stories of those games. I suppose you could argue that the latest Tomb Raider has the threat of sexual abuse in it, but even then you could have a Deliverance style scenario and end up with the same result, though I agree it is less likely.

The trials and tribulations of a male drug dealer is going to be different from a female drug dealer, even if it's down to the smallest details

Maybe, but in most films with female drug lords I've seen, it really does come down to the smallest insignificant details that more often than not equate to *shock* "whoa the badass drug barron is really a hot female" *shock* kind of thing. Did Salma Hayek in Savage make the film any fresher or exciting? No, not really. You could leave everything the same except giving her a sex change, you'd get the same result. Likewise, Scarface would be just as good if Tony were a woman.

That's not to say that you can't have a film or book or game about a female drug dealer that explores the womanhood of the character in a meaningful and interesting way. But for the most part I stand by what I said.

the game doesn't even need a female protagonist, it just needs one female character that isn't bitching at you, or ordering you to do something.

Well this is a different point then, and I'm sure I would agree with you. Though Riku makes a good point, that most male characters in these games are every bit a hateful as the women.

[Segata Sanshiro Jr.]

Ok

To give this context, I don't particularly agree with the article. I don't think people "have" to do anything. We have rules, and standards, and while its interesting to challenge them, there is a difference between a purposeful challenge of an established concept and plain ole ignorance.

Would I think it's ok that the only time you ride with a woman is if you're trying to fuck her? Yes -- it's also stupid but there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

Yes, there absolutely is something wrong with that. At its very base that is the objectification of women. This is where things like rape culture come from, and this isn't a case of being used purposefully to make a point.

It is a problem that millions of people will pick up this game, and like you, not see anything wrong.

Art is an extension of the person who creates. There are millions of people creating things all over the world -- some people are just bad at it. Rather than to sit here and dictate, demand, and dwell, I'd instead choose to find something from someone who's actually competent in their craft. Either that, or be the example.

and if the creation is damaging to a group of people?

I think it's perfectly fine to hate the games they make, and also perfectly fine to criticize them for it, but their content is their own, regardless of my expectations or wants. Would I think it's ok that the only time you ride with a woman is if you're trying to fuck her? Yes -- it's also stupid but there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

Art is an extension of the person who creates.

I was actually about to post something very similar earlier.
Everyone has their own voice. I hate this idea that there's a "correct" way to do things in the arts, be it writing, filmmaking, painting, or whatever.
Picasso painted profile shots that somehow show both eyes. It might not make sense, but is he wrong for doing it? Would I call him a shitty artist for it?
I would not.
I'm not calling Dan Houser a brilliant writer by any means, but I do take issue with the idea that if he doesn't adhere to the desires of a certain audience, that somehow makes him "bad" at what he does. There's no one right way to do things in the writing world, and I think it's a bit silly for someone to demand content that the writer never set out to deal with in the first place.

Picasso putting both eyes on a profile isn't comparable to a lot of the things game designers get away with. You can;t compare an artist purposely breaking the rules of a craft to "Derrr hurr hurrr titties".

Again, Max Payne 3 didn't have any strong female characters, not because they don't exist in context, not because he purposely wanted to avoid them, but because he didn't realize they existed. He missed out on something because he didn't actually understand the context. You'll see that trend in all of his work, again, not because he wants to make a point, but because he's unobservant.

It's not even like men come off well in these games. The women may all be strippers or hookers but all the guys are psychos or murderers. If a guy's a nerd in GTA he doesn't just like nerdy things the guy sits in his mothers basement and is fat. If a guy is from another country he is usually a stereotype to an extreme level. Not a single character in GTA isn't slimy or dirty in some way and comes out not looking good, Men and women.

Anyway I'm going to go and shoot some prostitutes.

its not a matter of men or women coming off well, but being properly used. We love characters like Pat, but he's a racist loudmouthed idiot. There isn't a female character you go robbing banks with, or can call and kill stuff with.

Maybe, but in most films with female drug lords I've seen, it really does come down to the smallest insignificant details that more often than not equate to *shock* "whoa the badass drug barron is really a hot female" *shock* kind of thing.

Ever seen Dredd? Part of the reason the rest of the gang is terrified of the boss is because when she was a whore she bit off a guys dick before killing him. Sure that could happen with a guy, the fact that this character was a female had a very direct impact on her definition as a character. making these differences, picking up on things that are understood or accepted. If you can swap out the person's gender then its not a defining feature of the character, personally I see that as a weakness.

[south carmain]

Been playing it all day, not sure where people get the impression the game takes itself too seriously, personally I got the exact opposite feel. great game though, I've really enjoyed what I played so far, fixes so many things GTA4 did wrong.

[Let's Get Sweaty]

My copy arrived today after all, when Tesco had said it was due tomorrow. I only intended to run the installation this evening, but annoyingly it thrust me straight into the beginning of the game once installation was complete. There was no need for that. So I've now played through until the first opportunity to save, whilst not in the best mood for it because I wasn't intending to start it till tomorrow.

[south carmain]

My copy arrived today after all, when Tesco had said it was due tomorrow. I only intended to run the installation this evening, but annoyingly it thrust me straight into the beginning of the game once installation was complete. There was no need for that. So I've now played through until the first opportunity to save, whilst not in the best mood for it because I wasn't intending to start it till tomorrow.

you poor thing, you should sue them for mental trauma

[Kenny]

That's because they have different personalities. Were Lara a lovable roguish treasure hunter with a penchant for quips, then yes, it would be the same thing. Changing one's gender doesn't change their personality. It might change that character's experience of society, but how many games portray a woman's experience of society in any meaningful way? Saints Row sure doesn't and nor do earlier Tomb Raider games, thus sex type has no significant impact on the stories of those games. I suppose you could argue that the latest Tomb Raider has the threat of sexual abuse in it, but even then you could have a Deliverance style scenario and end up with the same result, though I agree it is less likely.

This nullifies your point. Can't see it happening to Nathan Drake. Not because it's impossible but because of the way society portrays these types of situations. It's a stingy scene, I admit, and there could be way better examples but this is what I was referring to.

Maybe, but in most films with female drug lords I've seen, it really does come down to the smallest insignificant details that more often than not equate to *shock* "whoa the badass drug barron is really a hot female" *shock* kind of thing. Did Salma Hayek in Savage make the film any fresher or exciting? No, not really. You could leave everything the same except giving her a sex change, you'd get the same result. Likewise, Scarface would be just as good if Tony were a woman.

That's not to say that you can't have a film or book or game about a female drug dealer that explores the womanhood of the character in a meaningful and interesting way. But for the most part I stand by what I said.

That's the key problem here. They just put a badass hot woman in there just to have a hot woman in there. More than likely they had no idea what to do with her character other than to show off some eye candy. I recently saw an interview with Jewel Staite and she explained the difference between her character Kaylee on Firefly and Dr. Keller on Stargate: Atlantis is that Kaylee is an intelligent, brave, badass woman and Dr. Keller is insecure, scared, and constantly in peril.

Joss Whedon thinks outside the box and does what others are not really doing. That's why he ultimately did Avengers, on top of being supremely good at what he does (in spite of my reservations of his directing).



But my argument is not to FORCE change, it's to CONSIDER it. If the head writer can't do it, what about one of the other writers who may have a really good idea that can be integrated?

Though I also get the argument being said: people play GTA to blow shit up. They don't give a flying fuck about the clearly satirical over-the-top storyline, but hey I enjoy it.

[Thief]

Would I think it's ok that the only time you ride with a woman is if you're trying to fuck her? Yes -- it's also stupid but there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

Yes, there absolutely is something wrong with that. At its very base that is the objectification of women. This is where things like rape culture come from, and this isn't a case of being used purposefully to make a point.

It is a problem that millions of people will pick up this game, and like you, not see anything wrong.

Art is an extension of the person who creates. There are millions of people creating things all over the world -- some people are just bad at it. Rather than to sit here and dictate, demand, and dwell, I'd instead choose to find something from someone who's actually competent in their craft. Either that, or be the example.

and if the creation is damaging to a group of people?

From what it seems to me, you're confusing two different kinds of wrongs. Whether it's wrong for someone to express themselves vs. whether or not what their expressing is wrong. I'm not arguing the content but rather that the creator should be able create whatever he/she would like to create. It's called freedom of expression and it by no means should be denied because you or anyone else thinks what they're saying is wrong.

As to if it's damaging to a group of people -- to whom does it damage, and if you can answer that, then how is it damaging? Unless you mean that everything must be politically correct and not hurt anybodies feelings. In which case I completely disagree. Political Correctness is entirely anti-intellectual.

[Henry Spencer]

Been playing it all day, not sure where people get the impression the game takes itself too seriously, personally I got the exact opposite feel. great game though, I've really enjoyed what I played so far, fixes so many things GTA4 did wrong.

Such as? GTAIV sucked ass, so it's going to take a lot to convince me that V is back to the PS2 era of Rockstar (which is when they were at their peak). Like, if you crash the car, the player character doesn't go flying through the windscreen like in IV? What about cheats? Does this game actually have any? And how much damage do the enemies take vs the player character?

[south carmain]

Been playing it all day, not sure where people get the impression the game takes itself too seriously, personally I got the exact opposite feel. great game though, I've really enjoyed what I played so far, fixes so many things GTA4 did wrong.

Such as? GTAIV sucked ass, so it's going to take a lot to convince me that V is back to the PS2 era of Rockstar (which is when they were at their peak). Like, if you crash the car, the player character doesn't go flying through the windscreen like in IV? What about cheats? Does this game actually have any? And how much damage do the enemies take vs the player character?

The character does go flying through windscreen but much less frequently and the cars are no longer boats on wheels so it's not really an issue at all.

I don't know about cheats, I've been playing without them

they're pretty quick to kill though you also lose health rather quickly so you will be doing cover shooting a lot.

[Segata Sanshiro Jr.]

Rape Culture is an environment in which rape is prevalent and in which sexual violence against women is normalized and excused in the media and popular culture. Rape culture is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, the objectification of women’s bodies, and the glamorization of sexual violence, thereby creating a society that disregards women’s rights and safety.

http://www.marshall.edu/wpmu/wcenter/se ... e-culture/

Presenting the objectification of women and trivializing said objectification contributes to what is called a rape culture. People get really jumpy with the word, and I'm not exactly in a position to chide anyone about rape, but things like this are part of the reason why a person can be raped and it not be seen as a big deal.

Thats why portraying all of the women in a game this way is a problem, and objectifying women is, at its core, wrong. Playing GTA V isn't going to make someone walk out and rape the first person they see, but the commonality of objectified women culminates in women being objectified.

Dan can make whatever he likes, people are free to do anything they want to even if its bad, they just need to realize that consequences follow. (The irony of you guys trying to explain that concept to me is fucking fantastic)

I played through 3/4s of GTA 5 before I left and thought it was pretty good, i just thought the end was kinda dumb, I'll play it in full when the pc version is out