Shenmue Dojo

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:57 pm**

Quite interesting, I find myself agreeing with both sides, though Ryudo, I do think* it is parodying itself, in the way that they used quite parody-ing humour in the pre-GTA4 games, particularly the people on the radio stations.

*(hope) If they really have disappeared up their own arses and followed the convention in gaming (which is now actually pretty old) where everything has to be "dark" and have a "gritty feel", then it is a great shame. IMO.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:05 pm**

I'm down for a GTA where I play as a hot female cop turned bank robber. I would do nothing but rob banks, go to strip clubs and pick up hookers, then go and clam stamp fools after I beat them down with a bat for looking at me wrong.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:09 pm**

Raithos wrote: I'm down for a GTA where I play as a hot female cop turned bank robber. I would do nothing but rob banks, go to strip clubs and pick up hookers, then go and clam stamp fools after I beat them down with a bat for looking at me wrong.

Excellent point. Then they would complain it portrays women in a negative violent light. So maybe GTA isn't the series for it.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:10 pm**

That complaint was made about Saints Row, but that argument didn't last long.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:17 pm**

Segata Sanshiro Jr. wrote: That complaint was made about Saints Row, but that argument didn't last long.

But those were create a character and just avatars no?

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:20 pm**

Kinda, you choose but the characters has a voice and a storyline. I played 4 as a guy and girl and was pleasantly surprised to find them tell completely different origin stories during the Benjamin King mission. Plus it has characters like Lin, Ayesha, Shaundi etc, that are main characters that do stuff in the story for you.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:07 pm**

That's presumptuous. Maybe it could, you don't know.

I'll be honest, I think the vast majority of the time it doesn't make the damnedest bit of difference to a story whether a character is female or male (or anything in-between). The only real difference between men and women are arbitrary physical ones. Most characters in most stories could change sex and be exactly the same.

But who's to say someone else can't come in the future with a cool story for a female protag, push him aside, and just do it?

No one is. At least, not me.

"But he'd just be forcing one in" is an apologist way of thinking. No, women exist, they have stories, they have an effect half of the world's population not having any kind of bearing on your creative process just means you're out of touch with reality.

Plus the way women are used in GTA 5 is just bad in general.

They definitely do have stories. But to be honest, I'm a little bit hazy on what you are actually arguing for. Are you saying that R* have a responsibility to provide a GTA with a female protagonist? If so, I don't agree. I don't think any creative has any responsibility to provide an equally representative cast in a piece of fiction. Why don't we lambaste Nintendo for all the Zelda games that don't let you play as Zelda, or Yakuza for it's unbalanced male to female ratio.

Would I personally like to see more good female leads? Definitely. But I think a equal representation within a piece of fiction isn't always necessary, from a creative stand point.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:24 pm**

this is the big point that you seem to be missing. you don't need to put a female protagonist in a game for the sake of having one, you need you put females in your game(even if they're not playable) because they exist.

An example, Lin in saint's row is a lieutenant in the 3rd street saints. She goes under cover and fights for your gang to try and overthrow another. In Saints row 3 you get female gang members that can just chill with you, you get female homies you can ride around with. They aren't shoehorned in, shaundi is important, Kinzie is important, Ayesha etc. They exist in various roles. some are violent some are non violent. You can call up Pat, or Francis, and do missions with/for them but one of the only times a woman does something outside of a limited gender role in the whole game is when a very butch female(Elizabetha) shoots a joke character(Manny Escuela).

If you're trying to tell a story about a father and son, and make them payable protagonist, thats one thing. you're making a game ABOUT the male point of view, putting a female protagonist in something like that isn't helping the story. Thats what red dead redemption is about, fathers and sons, redemption.

the game doesn't even need a female protagonist, it just needs one female character that isn't bitching at you, or ordering you to do something.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:55 pm**

Segata Sanshiro Jr. wrote:The game doesn't even need a female protagonist, it just needs one female character that isn't bitching at you, or ordering you to do something.

Why?

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:02 pm**

Thief wrote:
Segata Sanshiro Jr. wrote:The game doesn't even need a female protagonist, it just needs one female character that isn't bitching at you, or ordering you to do something.

Why?

Why send a person to LA to map out areas? Why use real cars as the base for in game cars? Why mocap? Why have the characters resemble voice actors?

If you're going for realism, then the reality is that not every female in the underground is a fukckbuddy.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:05 pm**

I don't think there is a necessity that anyone other than the creator can demand, regardless of any realism that's to be expected.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:09 pm**

Maybe it's like Kids to a lesser degree. In games kids don't exist unless they are saving the world or complete dicks in games you can kill everything but them..or evil themselves or a plot device like LOU. Darksiders at the begining when it's the end of the world. No kids. Skyrim they are creepy dickholes. La Noire they don't exist.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:17 pm**

For me it's not about doing it cause it's "all about equality" and all that crap. It's all about doing it cause no one else is doing it, it's a ripe world of storytelling that's not being done. So when it is, it'll be fresh and exciting.

That's why I liked San Andreas. I played CJ, a black dude from the hood. I mean italian mobsters are cool and all but I liked doing things from another perspective. Yes, forcing things on people is never a good idea. That we can agree with. But really, if you want to restrict your creativity to such a degree you're going to wind up becoming stale. Maybe I like the idea so much of a female protag because I'm not restricting myself to just one idea, i'm always coming up with loads of different stuff that is unrelated to each other.

I'll be honest, I think the vast majority of the time it doesn't make the damnedest bit of difference to a story whether a character is female or male (or anything in-between). The only real difference between men and women are arbitrary physical ones. Most characters in most stories could change sex and be exactly the same.

It would make a difference. Lara Croft and Nathan Drake are adventurers, but switch them out in their respective games and you won't get the same thing.

The trials and tribulations of a male drug dealer is going to be different from a female drug dealer, even if it's down to the smallest details. But those small details make the entire journey that much more exciting cause it's always thrilling to see the side of a world you never thought was possible. I think it's also a case of being scared to try something different for fear of fanbase backlash.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:23 pm**

Thief wrote: I don't think there is a necessity that anyone other than the creator can demand, regardless of any realism that's to be expected.

Then what standards do we hold ourselves to? Don't try to sell me realism then when I say "This isn't real" say "but I'm artistic".

do you seriously think its ok that the only time you ride with a woman in this game is if you're trying to fuck her?

The worst part in all this is that it makes the "points" in GTA5 that atry to be political even funnier, not because they're good jokes but because they describe the people who tell them.

Ryudo wrote:Maybe it's like Kids to a lesser degree. In games kids don't exist unless they are saving the world or complete dicks in games you can kill everything but them..or evil themselves or a plot device like LOU. Darksiders at the begining when it's the end of the world. No kids. Skyrim they are creepy dickholes. La Noire they don't exist.

EXACTLY. Kids exist, why are they not in games. One of my favorite things about Star Ocean 1 is that the world had memorable kids, even ones that it KILLS. I wanna play MGS5 BECAUSE it has little African kids as soldiers. I wanna see how that gets handled.

Kenny wrote:That's why I liked San Andreas. I played CJ, a black dude from the hood. I mean italian mobsters are cool and all but I liked doing things from another perspective.

Kenny wrote:The trials and tribulations of a male drug dealer is going to be different from a female drug dealer,

The point I'm trying to make is that Dan Houser is a shitty writer, he's one of the better writers in games, but being a 1st grader that writes at 2nd grade level isn't a good thing. The guy doesn't know how to use females let alone write a really good one. Aside from Red Dead the guy isn't capable and it shows in GTA 4 and 5 because of how serious they try to be.

Posted: **Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:16 pm**

Segata Sanshiro Jr. wrote:
Thief wrote: I don't think there is a necessity that anyone other than the creator can demand, regardless of any realism that's to be expected.

Then what standards do we hold ourselves to? Don't try to sell me realism then when I say "This isn't real" say "but I'm artistic".

do you seriously think its ok that the only time you ride with a woman in this game is if you're trying to fuck her?

The worst part in all this is that it makes the "points" in GTA5 that atry to be political even funnier, not because they're good jokes but because they describe the people who tell them.

I think it's perfectly fine to hate the games they make, and also perfectly fine to criticize them for it, but their content is their own, regardless of my expectations or wants. Would I think it's ok that the only time you ride with a woman is if you're trying to fuck her? Yes -- it's also stupid but there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

Art is an extension of the person who creates. There are millions of people creating things all over the world -- some people are just bad at it. Rather than to sit here and dictate, demand, and dwell, I'd instead choose to find something from someone who's actually competent in their craft. Either that, or be the example.

I shall live the life of the existentialist; I will will let my ego lead. Difference was not made by the vote, but by being elected.

Shenmue Dojo

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