Football

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Re: Football

Postby Nahovil » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:45 am

Why should adding the point total at the end of a group phase or season defeat the purpose of a match?
But, more pertinently, why is having a winner justified if a team isn't able to overcome its counterpart?
  


 
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Re: Football

Postby Axm » Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:33 pm

To me and many others out there who follow a sport which don't allow tie's, allowing that is equal to allowing an incomplete conclusion. If you enjoy the respectfulness of saving face for your team or the opposing I can understand the sentiment, it's a polite and romantic concept, but in the end that doesn't tell you who the better team is.
Plain and simple, it's a lie.

And for the point total's it's basically perpetuating that lie. If you have to tally a total of combined points mixed between playing OTHER teams then you are essentially saying that nothing else matters but the ability to shoot the ball into the goal no matter which team you play. Might aswell get the best keepers and strikers of every team, line them up and have at each other one by one until one team has the most goals. This ofcourse would be ridiculous and defeat the point of the real game. So why determine the best team or qualifying teams based on one single aspect of the game? The sport and it's fans deserve to be respected with the knowledge that one team played the game better then the other. Rather than one team scored more than "X" team because of scheduling or bracketing or any other circumstantial reason like weather, missing players etc

I'm betting more often then not, people complain that "X" team played only the harder/better teams in a season and so "that's why they didn't make it this time.." or vice versa etc. You end up making all sorts of excuses for your team based on some top executives decision who's probably "corrupt", "biased" or an "idiot". I know this has got to be true because it happens in other sports aswell, just they don't have fucking tie's to add to the mayhem of "what if's".
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Re: Football

Postby Raithos » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:26 pm

I agree, I love watching it. I have some friends from Argentina that I watch games with a lot. They don't understand why I don't like when matches end in a tie. And I'm like "they have shootouts for a reason, there doesn't have to be a tie." In basically every other sport there is a way to settle who was the better team that day. They have shootouts lol so use them. Still love watching it though. To this day the only sports games I can play is PES/Fifa. Its how I learned the rules :)
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Re: Football

Postby Nahovil » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:46 am

Axm wrote:To me and many others out there who follow a sport which don't allow tie's, allowing that is equal to allowing an incomplete conclusion. If you enjoy the respectfulness of saving face for your team or the opposing I can understand the sentiment, it's a polite and romantic concept, but in the end that doesn't tell you who the better team is.
Plain and simple, it's a lie.

And for the point total's it's basically perpetuating that lie. If you have to tally a total of combined points mixed between playing OTHER teams then you are essentially saying that nothing else matters but the ability to shoot the ball into the goal no matter which team you play. Might aswell get the best keepers and strikers of every team, line them up and have at each other one by one until one team has the most goals. This ofcourse would be ridiculous and defeat the point of the real game. So why determine the best team or qualifying teams based on one single aspect of the game? The sport and it's fans deserve to be respected with the knowledge that one team played the game better then the other. Rather than one team scored more than "X" team because of scheduling or bracketing or any other circumstantial reason like weather, missing players etc

I'm betting more often then not, people complain that "X" team played only the harder/better teams in a season and so "that's why they didn't make it this time.." or vice versa etc. You end up making all sorts of excuses for your team based on some top executives decision who's probably "corrupt", "biased" or an "idiot". I know this has got to be true because it happens in other sports aswell, just they don't have fucking tie's to add to the mayhem of "what if's".




The best team or qualifying teams are determined by various aspects of the game and in what it's called championships (the main domestic competitions), everybody plays one another (only in so-called Cups are teams split into groups and qualifiers). Total points, goal difference, head-to-head, most goals scored, an actual playoff in case of absolute ties, etc.


I'm not sure fans deserve to know what team is the best (I'm not sure what you mean by deserve), and if they are disrespected (?) by the fact. Perhaps, we see it as less fan-centered. I regard it as other than pure entertainment, insofar as they're not competing for viewer pleasure (even though how famously pleasing it is). Maybe it is related to the uncertain nature of the game and its rules. Because Association football is so free that it, for instance, basically allows a ball and the players to just stand still from kickoff until the final whistle, no rules (without addressing social norms) condition your course of action, in that sense. Since the course of action is less determined, this, probably, allows for teams to actually play "better" than the opposition without outscoring them, through possession, chances created, etc - sometimes even losing a match (which is clearly illusory, since, objectively, you play better if you fulfil the game's outscoring-the-opponent objective).


I'd say the main difference in these opposing views is that of a qualitative vs quantitative measurement. Watching football, people, quite subjectively, qualify the way teams play and how the matches generally look or looked like to them, often using the scoreline's quantification in parallel and not as its superordinate.


I guess that, at the end of the day, determining who's best or worse is either not as important or rather not always just decided by one single occasion and only by outscoring a single opposition (counter-intuitively, we constantly hear how better a team played despite losing). Perhaps the need to hierarchize is exacerbated in North-America's cultural environment, if I may put it like that.
  


 
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Re: Football

Postby Riku Rose » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:58 am

This is why it was better when we used to alienate the Americans rather then send them our washed up legends.

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Re: Football

Postby Axm » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:21 pm

^America has so many of it's own original/reimagined sports. We really don't need Soccer unlike the rest of the world. Inherently it is more nationalist and American to not play soccer as it's simply not our sport. You all know how much we love to beat our own drum. Sure we play the sport on a satisfactory level at best and we have our fair share of fans,(usually from recently immigrated families) but no, usually after elementary school the kids stop kicking the ball around and move on to American sports as did I. Especially after I sprained my ankle I told Soccer to fuck right off and went back to Baseball where I belonged. To which I sprained my ankle again but atleast I did so with greater purpose.

In Japan though for example, they are very eager to play any sport in the world because they simply didn't have many non-martial arts related sport in the recent past. They play Baseball the most,(yup) followed by soccer, then tennis, basketball, volleyball, table tennis, rugby and even now American football aswell.

Nahovil wrote:
I'm not sure fans deserve to know what team is the best (I'm not sure what you mean by deserve), and if they are disrespected (?) by the fact. Perhaps, we see it as less fan-centered. I regard it as other than pure entertainment, insofar as they're not competing for viewer pleasure (even though how famously pleasing it is). Maybe it is related to the uncertain nature of the game and its rules. Because Association football is so free that it, for instance, basically allows a ball and the players to just stand still from kickoff until the final whistle, no rules (without addressing social norms) condition your course of action, in that sense. Since the course of action is less determined, this, probably, allows for teams to actually play "better" than the opposition without outscoring them, through possession, chances created, etc - sometimes even losing a match (which is clearly illusory, since, objectively, you play better if you fulfil the game's outscoring-the-opponent objective).

Understandable but yes, in America we have a greater sense of desire to know who the better man/team is. America has always been a competitive environment in every aspect of life because we thrived on it and needed it to create a new nation. We don't have time to call it quits or evade conclusive outcomes. No saving face in America, just winners and losers. Which is unfortunately why someone like Donald Trump is so appealing to his fans. He always claims himself to be a winner no matter the case, but that's a different topic.


Nahovil wrote:I'd say the main difference in these opposing views is that of a qualitative vs quantitative measurement. Watching football, people, quite subjectively, qualify the way teams play and how the matches generally look or looked like to them, often using the scoreline's quantification in parallel and not as its superordinate.

We ofcourse have our own micro-stats and qualitative measurements, especially in Baseball. Take a look at all the different statistics we keep track of for a single player sometime. It's really daunting and we continue to expand our categories to the point fans don't know certain stats existed. Watch the movie 'Money Ball" sometime, with Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill. Based on a true story and a great way for a non-baseball knowledgeable person to see how deep and ever expanding it's statistics can get and how sometimes stats aren't the most important factor to consider aswell. Sometimes both qualitative and quantitative measurements should be respected and that's what the movie is about. I have an Irish friend of mine here in Japan go on about how he liked the movie alot, didn't know a lick about baseball and now wants to learn more about the sport.

Nahovil wrote:I guess that, at the end of the day, determining who's best or worse is either not as important or rather not always just decided by one single occasion and only by outscoring a single opposition (counter-intuitively, we constantly hear how better a team played despite losing). Perhaps the need to hierarchize is exacerbated in North-America's cultural environment, if I may put it like that.

Yes you may because it is. ;) Like I explained above, we simply don't have time to pussy foot around it. I understand the concept of not determining a winner on a per-match basis but to Americans this seems like a waste of time. Especially in American Football, it has a low amount of games played per season because the players are literally killing themselves and wont have much time left on earth after being diagnosed with brain trauma and paralysis from the neck down.
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Re: Football

Postby Nahovil » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:51 pm

I see. Well, soccer has seen an unprecedented rise in the US over the past few years, viewership, attendance numbers and practitioners included (can't bother finding the numbers). In Japan's case, I've read, by people living in Japan, that football, regarding practitioners, has surpassed baseball for a lot and a while now, while maintaining a shared attendance with baseball.

Yeah, I understand your point; we've covered it, but I challenge the premise that determining what the "better thing" is offers any sort of conclusion or, rather, that it is relevant (speaking on a fundamental level); thus, through this point of view, a tie doesn't entail inconclusiveness.

I'm not sure I'll watch Money Ball but I'm sure baseball is fun to play (I'm not degrading it in any way); clearly, qualitative measurement happens in every sport, maybe just not as pertinent to the judgement of the outcome of a match as in football.

Axm wrote:Yes you may because it is. ;) Like I explained above, we simply don't have time to pussy foot around it. I understand the concept of not determining a winner on a per-match basis but to Americans this seems like a waste of time. Especially in American Football, it has a low amount of games played per season because the players are literally killing themselves and wont have much time left on earth after being diagnosed with brain trauma and paralysis from the neck down.



Heh, you guys need the constant fix, pleasure can't be delayed!
  


 
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Re: Football

Postby Axm » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:51 pm

^Never! Don't forget we are the country with massive amounts of guns. We cant wait to kill each other with the fastest easiest way possible. A knife is just so.. slow and European.. eww they might survive that.

Nahovil wrote: I see. Well, soccer has seen an unprecedented rise in the US over the past few years, viewership, attendance numbers and practitioners included (can't bother finding the numbers). In Japan's case, I've read, by people living in Japan, that football, regarding practitioners, has surpassed baseball for a lot and a while now, while maintaining a shared attendance with baseball.

Popularity of soccer goes up and down in the U.S based on when the World Cup comes around and people start suddenly caring again about it and what state you live in. Overall though, it's still a major sport but about 4th/5th or higher in terms of popularity/fan attendance/players etc.
1st. American Football
2nd. Basketball
3rd. Baseball
4th. Hockey (varies by state)
5th. Soccer (varies by state)
6th. Golf or Tennis (varies by state)

In Japan's case again, by living here over 5 years total and in a major city (around 4th largest in Japan) being in the public school system and constantly asking Elementary-High School level kids, having plenty of Japanese adult friends, having a Japanese wife who tells me so and attending the game I recently went to.. Soccer is still very much 2nd place to Baseball.

The popularity has risen and does keep rising but Baseball is still far larger in both actual players at the school level (among boys) TV viewership, fan attendance and public opinion.
And I saw that clearly in the game I went to which was a national top competing level team with apparently some very good players, yet I saw lots of empty seats and ticket prices were rock bottom. 1000 yen(8.5 euro) and I was sitting in the center more "premium-ish" seats.

By contrast at the local Baseball stadium the same price will get you sitting in the worst seats and you'll still see the place packed full with lots sitting in more premium seats fetching around 100-ish euro or more per seat. The industry is much larger and it's because the older generation comes into play aswell which are hardened Baseball fans.
I can see when the younger generation gets older though that Soccer will catch up to Baseball.
Among small children, Soccer is more accessible ofcourse in terms of equipment needs and amount of rules to be knowledgeable of in order to get going a play. So it's just a question of if the younger generation now keeps playing and watching. Certainly the girls are all for it as Baseball is still quite "misogynistic" you male pigs!

Whats really trending right now though is Rugby. The Japanese team is pretty good from what I've seen and suddenly TV shows are explaining the rules to us and inviting the players on talk shows etc.

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Re: Football

Postby Nahovil » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:58 am

About football in the US, I'm aware of the sudden rises and falls in interest, come the World Cup. However, between the constant craze over the Women's team and how many kids are playing nowadays, NBC's rather successful Premier League broadcasting and World Cup matches topping NBA finals' and World Series' numbers, my point was that it's clearly on the rise, trends excluded.



Axm wrote:In Japan's case again, by living here over 5 years total and in a major city (around 4th largest in Japan) being in the public school system and constantly asking Elementary-High School level kids, having plenty of Japanese adult friends, having a Japanese wife who tells me so and attending the game I recently went to.. Soccer is still very much 2nd place to Baseball.
The popularity has risen and does keep rising but Baseball is still far larger in both actual players at the school level (among boys) TV viewership, fan attendance and public opinion.
And I saw that clearly in the game I went to which was a national top competing level team with apparently some very good players, yet I saw lots of empty seats and ticket prices were rock bottom. 1000 yen(8.5 euro) and I was sitting in the center more "premium-ish" seats.



I see. Well, your account is more credible. Out of curiosity, which match did you attend? I've actually followed the J. League, online, before.
  


 
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Football

Postby Axm » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:09 am

Kawasaki vs. Avispa Fukuoka ;) Good match, but ya they tied. Some of the foreigner players seemed good although did alot of "flopping" as we say in basketball when you just draw the foul by faking that you have a life altering injury.
One of the things I like about Baseball is faking getting hit hardly ever happens. When you get hit by a ball going 155kmh everyone knows it, aswell as ramming into someone at a base. Same with American football and rugby. I kinda respect the sports in which when you get hit, it makes a big sound so you know it's true.
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Re: Football

Postby Yokosuka » Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:40 am

I really thought France was out, what a liberation. Respect to Ireland to play the game unlike too many teams in this Euro. Sad to have had to match this country to pass.
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Re: Football

Postby drunkensailor » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:59 pm

Yokosuka wrote: I really thought France was out, what a liberation. Respect to Ireland to play the game unlike too many teams in this Euro. Sad to have had to match this country to pass.

what are you talking about? ireland played EXACTLY like all other countries this european championship: total defense! this is the worst football tournament I've ever seen
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Re: Football

Postby Nahovil » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:17 pm

Can't quite believe we've done it.





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Re: Football

Postby Hyo Razuki » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:41 pm

Hahaha! Congrats to Portugal! Your team went into tournament mode from the round of 16 on and didn't conced any more goals after the group stage, which is why they deserve the title. Great organisation, great fighting spirit. Pretty anemic performance by the French team in the final, considering it was their own national stadium. Unsportsmanlike Payet got what he deserved and what a career-defining match from Rui Patricio. =D>

Feeling kind of sorry for Cedric Biscay and Benjamin Berget though. Cheer up, guys! :heart:
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Re: Football

Postby Who Really Cares? » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:35 am

Yeah but under the original rules. They would have been sent home after the group stage. Crazy.

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