The Dark Knight Rises

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Re: Batman 3

Postby Tuffty » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:34 pm

About Blake:

I think that thing with the Robin reveal at the end is being taken far too seriously. To me, that's just a little nod, like a joke from Nolan. It's mentioned and then quickly disposed with "Hey you should change your name to Robin!!" "Ah yeh whatever."

I thought the character fitted in well. For the whole movie, he is pretty much Robin. Just not in costume. And to me that plays so much stronger to what that movie is all about, with the rise against Bane and the others. Because all Bruce Wayne wanted, as he said in the first movie and even reflects in this one, was that he wanted to inspire people and wanted to say that anyone could be Batman. And so here then in this movie you have this regular guy, who's even less fortunate than Bruce was, being inspired by Batman and just being good to people, providing hope when there wasn't any, and just looking out for his fellow man. He goes as far as Batman without being in costume and I think that couldn't have been handled better to close that aspect of the trilogy in all honesty.


Is it the best movie ever? No. Is it the best of the trilogy. No. But is it a good action blockbuster? Absolutely.
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Re: Batman 3

Postby OL » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:44 pm

^^All agreement on your points about Blake.

And I just have to say, the little tussle where he ricocheted the bullet off of the pipe and hit the guy holding him was awesome, in that kind of "laugh and exclaim 'oh shit!'" kind of way.
Totally shallow observation to make, I know, but it was completely kickass either way.
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Re: Batman 3

Postby Joe Pesci » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:47 am

Tuffty wrote:About Blake:

I think that thing with the Robin reveal at the end is being taken far too seriously. To me, that's just a little nod, like a joke from Nolan. It's mentioned and then quickly disposed with "Hey you should change your name to Robin!!" "Ah yeh whatever."

I thought the character fitted in well. For the whole movie, he is pretty much Robin. Just not in costume. And to me that plays so much stronger to what that movie is all about, with the rise against Bane and the others. Because all Bruce Wayne wanted, as he said in the first movie and even reflects in this one, was that he wanted to inspire people and wanted to say that anyone could be Batman. And so here then in this movie you have this regular guy, who's even less fortunate than Bruce was, being inspired by Batman and just being good to people, providing hope when there wasn't any, and just looking out for his fellow man. He goes as far as Batman without being in costume and I think that couldn't have been handled better to close that aspect of the trilogy in all honesty.


Is it the best movie ever? No. Is it the best of the trilogy. No. But is it a good action blockbuster? Absolutely.


Hmm, really?

"Because all Bruce Wayne wanted, as he said in the first movie and even reflects in this one, was that he wanted to inspire people and wanted to say that anyone could be Batman."

I guess you didn't watch the opening of The Dark Knight then, when Nolan was pretty much saying that no one can be Batman except for Bruce, showing all of the Batman impostors sucking. People can try, but they will fail miserably, philosophically, physically, and financially.

Then he goes and does this shit in Batman 3 without being convincing in any way. It's like you're justifying a lazy narrative by saying it's a "nod". It doesn't change the fact that it was a major chunk of the film which finally culminated in his discovery of the bat cave, wherein it felt hollow and gimmicky. So forced. This kid he barely knows is gonna take over as Batman. Nolan to me comes across as so egotistical that he needs to literally make Batman retire because he is no longer directing. There was no good reason for Bats to ride off into the sunset the way he did. He just suddenly retires from that work ethic, after an already 8 year hiatus. I just think Bruce giving him the keys to his alternate identity only works for marketing purposes, and that sucks. Sure, make something work, then make it work for marketing. But don't make it only work for marketing. That's just lazy.


The concept of the nod is kind of cool, but executed poorly, like most of his great (sometimes brilliant) concepts.
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Re: Batman 3

Postby Tuffty » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:45 pm

Joe Pesci wrote:
"Because all Bruce Wayne wanted, as he said in the first movie and even reflects in this one, was that he wanted to inspire people and wanted to say that anyone could be Batman."

I guess you didn't watch the opening of The Dark Knight then, when Nolan was pretty much saying that no one can be Batman except for Bruce, showing all of the Batman impostors sucking. People can try, but they will fail miserably, philosophically, physically, and financially.


I don't mean literally be Batman, with a cape and batarangs and all. But the ideal that he left, of standing up for the morally right thing, of not letting criminals do wrong, that's what I mean. By the end of that movie, Batman is an icon of Gotham. It stands to the concept seen in the trilogy that a symbol is eternal and cannot be killed or destroyed. That's what Batman became by the end of the movie — a symbol that would be anybody, a statue of him raised as a monument not to the person, but to the ideal, that one man stood up against injustice for the people. And people can and have done that, you see that with Blake, who was less fortunate than Bruce was, being good to his fellow men and the kids around him and in the policemen charging against the criminals.


Joe Pesci wrote:
Then he goes and does this shit in Batman 3 without being convincing in any way. It's like you're justifying a lazy narrative by saying it's a "nod". It doesn't change the fact that it was a major chunk of the film which finally culminated in his discovery of the bat cave, wherein it felt hollow and gimmicky. So forced. This kid he barely knows is gonna take over as Batman. Nolan to me comes across as so egotistical that he needs to literally make Batman retire because he is no longer directing. There was no good reason for Bats to ride off into the sunset the way he did. He just suddenly retires from that work ethic, after an already 8 year hiatus. I just think Bruce giving him the keys to his alternate identity only works for marketing purposes, and that sucks. Sure, make something work, then make it work for marketing. But don't make it only work for marketing. That's just lazy.


Nolan's finished though. There won't be any more films in this canon, it's just showing that Batman continues to be a presence in Gotham. Having Gordon finding that the Bat signal had been fixed also shows that as being true. They certainly won't continue on with Blake's character as the new Batman. Christian Bale has even said that Warner Bros has plans to "quickly" reboot this. I'll guess that the upcoming Superman movie will have references to a larger DC universe outside of that movie. Then Batman reboot. Then Justice League movie. You heard it here first.

Take into account Blake finding the Batcave. I think every shot there in that scene has an intentional purpose. Think of Blake standing admist a swarm of bats, the symbolism of the scene harking back to that scene from Batman Begins when Bruce slowly stands amid the swarm of bats to represent his crossing of a threshold on his journey to become Batman. But think of the very last shot in that movie. Blake stands on a platform which is raised up, lifting him towards the equipment you see in the distance, the platform is raised, screen turns black and then "THE DARK KNIGHT RISES"

The title can refer to a lot of things in that movie, Batman coming back from retirement, Batman climbing up out of the pit to save Gotham, Batman rising as a symbol of hope again in Gotham, and Batman’s general victory over Bane and over the tragedy in his own life. But to me it's symbolised extremely clearly in that final shot of the film when we see Blake step forward and that platform RISING to lift him to claim the legacy of Batman that Bruce has passed on to him. The Dark Knight will rise again, with someone else taking up the mantle to keep the symbol alive. I thought it was brilliant.

About Bruce Wayne riding off into the sunset, I actually give credit to that. Because all the talk beforehand was, "I guess Batman's gonna die? He kinda has to right?" and they even mention that in the marketing by showing off that piece of dialogue, "I haven't given them everything. Not yet." But I say kudos to the fact that the movie went at length to show that death isn't the ultimate thing. That you can't justify an empty existence by acting the martyr. By not dying, Bruce is still able to leave the legacy of Batman behind and to move on from the personal tragedy in his own life with Rachel's death by being with Selina. So I was quite glad it didn't turn out that way in all honesty.
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Re: Batman 3

Postby QWERTY » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:19 am

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Re: Batman 3

Postby Who Really Cares? » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:25 am

Thats sweet.
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Re: Batman 3

Postby Who Really Cares? » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:01 pm

Thought it might just miss out but TDKR has done over 1 Billion

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And its done more than TDK which many still say only did as well as it did do to Ledgers death

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Re: Batman 3

Postby Riku Rose » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:27 pm

^I still think that film wouldn't have made the money it did had Ledger not died. As soon as he died lots more people where more interested in the film. I knew people who would never care about a Batman film start talking about it. I'm sure it would have done amazing and got lots of critical praise I just don't think the box office numbers would be so high. Just look at the difference between the the takings for Begins and DK.

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Re: Batman 3

Postby MiTT3NZ » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:06 pm

People were talkin about TDK because it was the summer's big blockbuster. And the reason Begins didn't do as well was coz Nolan said himself that he wanted the public knowing as little as possible about it. The general public didn't know it was a reboot, that it wouldn't be cheesey, and it pretty much snuck up on everyone. TDK was advertised to fuck. Viral campaigns, huge billboard posters everywhere, on busses, in papers/mags, on TV, Youtube, etc. You couldn't escape it. Hell, everyone in the Working Men's Club was askin me about it and sayin they wanted to go see it. Guess who they'd never heard of?
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Re: Batman 3

Postby Bluecast » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:01 pm

in the summer of 2008 it was harder to avoid TDK hype than it was to avoid the cold while naked on a winter day. The only other thing I remember being as hyped as TDK was Halo 3.
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Re: Batman 3

Postby Who Really Cares? » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:13 pm

Riku Rose wrote: ^I still think that film wouldn't have made the money it did had Ledger not died. As soon as he died lots more people where more interested in the film. I knew people who would never care about a Batman film start talking about it. I'm sure it would have done amazing and got lots of critical praise I just don't think the box office numbers would be so high. Just look at the difference between the the takings for Begins and DK.



The hype had already started before his death and WB had a heavy media set up for it infact they cut down on advertising after his death and a few were already saying he deserved an Oscar for his role.

Begins was the first Batman since B&R, Not a great thing to follow up from.
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Re: Batman 3

Postby Riku Rose » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:35 pm

Who Really Cares? wrote:The hype had already started before his death and WB had a heavy media set up for it infact they cut down on advertising after his death and a few were already saying he deserved an Oscar for his role.


I remember you posting before Rises came out people saying it should win oscars but I honestly doubt this will. Ledger got that because he died. I think he deserved it but it was down to the fact that he wasn't around anymore.

I'm sure that the film would have still have done amazing at the box office but I find it hard to believe that it would have taken in a $1 billion.
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Re: Batman 3

Postby KiBa » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:00 pm

The following are personal opinions of someone who has never accomplished anything:

People shouldn't be obsessed with the number 3. This whole trilogy concept is too rigid. Nolan's Batman absolutely could have had a fourth part because Leonardo DiCaprio as the Riddler is too great an idea to waste. I say this because I can't figure how they could have fit the Riddler into any of the other movies. I suppose he could have worked with Bane. But you need the Riddler in the Batman mythos - genius against genius - to show why and how Batman is the World's Greatest Detective. He's an integral part. Seems to me that Nolan shaved off that whole intellectual layer from Bruce Wayne's personality. He's supposed to be brilliant, not just a specially-trained fighter.

Also, I would have had longer and detailed flashbacks of Ra's Al-Ghul. He's one of the most interesting characters, and they needed to reinforce his "immortality" by humanizing the guy, and showing how his extraordinary life led to all the events of TDKR. Just a dash of Ra's to connect the first movie and the third movie was not enough for me. In that regard, I would have also drastically changed the tone of some parts of the movie to reflect the mysticism of Batman's legend. Some of the strongest scenes from BB were when people saw Batman under the influence of Scarecrow's fear drug. Yet, Batman barely used any sort of filmable deception in TDKR. It wasn't needed so much in TDK, but a return of the spirit of Ra's Al-Ghul should have deeply affected the atmosphere of the third film, but it didn't at all.
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Re: Batman 3

Postby MiTT3NZ » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:40 pm

Yeah, if they returned to Batman using the BAT aspect of being Batman and using fear, they could've made the final Batman-Bane fight so much more epic. Think about it...

It's night (shouldn't have been set in the day), cops on one side, Bane's army on the other. It's all about to boot off when the Bat Signal shines in the sky. Everyone looks up and notices Batman stood on the roof of a building. Bane can't believe he's back. Bats flood all around Batman and swarm down to Bane's thugs, Batman gliding through them to get to Bane. Woulda been epic and put that fear factor into Bane as he realises that Bruce isn't a man in a Batman suit. He actually IS Batman. Just that little bit woulda added so much to the film and lend a tad of credibility to how Batman bests Bane in round two.

As for the "TDK wouldn't have hit a billion mark if it wasn't for Ledger's death thing..." Absolute bollocks. It's like people don't realise just how huge the Batman franchise is. People who read Marvel comics and feed into the whole DC vs Marvel thing still read Batman comics even though they're on the opposite 'team'. People who don't like superheroes still like Batman. People who love to watch blockbusters will go to see a Batman film. And, considering it was the biggest film in years at the time it was released, as well as the number of geeks who loved it so much they had to see it again and again (like me), and the fact that the fucking JOKER was in it (that's JOKER, NOT Heath Ledger), it was ALWAYS gonna make a billion, if not get VERY close to it.

Sayin Heath Ledger is the reason behind it is like sayin that Tevez was the reason we won the FA Cup, or that Aguero's the reason we won the Premiership. It's fuckin ludicrous.

And, I'll leave you with something else to ponder... What if it was Jack Nicholson or Johnny Depp who played the Joker in TDK?
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Re: Batman 3

Postby Joe Pesci » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:59 am

Tuffty wrote:
I don't mean literally be Batman, with a cape and batarangs and all. But the ideal that he left, of standing up for the morally right thing, of not letting criminals do wrong, that's what I mean. By the end of that movie, Batman is an icon of Gotham. It stands to the concept seen in the trilogy that a symbol is eternal and cannot be killed or destroyed. That's what Batman became by the end of the movie — a symbol that would be anybody, a statue of him raised as a monument not to the person, but to the ideal, that one man stood up against injustice for the people. And people can and have done that, you see that with Blake, who was less fortunate than Bruce was, being good to his fellow men and the kids around him and in the policemen charging against the criminals.


V For Vendetta did it much better. It was so much more emotionally resonant seeing all of the people wearing the (ironic) mask. I thought the film tried to be epic, but failed miserably. Nothing was emotionally resonant. I guess to me, when your average shot length is under two minutes, it's just hard to internalize anything. Even the policemen charging would have been better if Nolan had it shot and edited better.


Tuffty wrote:
Nolan's finished though. There won't be any more films in this canon, it's just showing that Batman continues to be a presence in Gotham. Having Gordon finding that the Bat signal had been fixed also shows that as being true. They certainly won't continue on with Blake's character as the new Batman. Christian Bale has even said that Warner Bros has plans to "quickly" reboot this. I'll guess that the upcoming Superman movie will have references to a larger DC universe outside of that movie. Then Batman reboot. Then Justice League movie. You heard it here first.

Take into account Blake finding the Batcave. I think every shot there in that scene has an intentional purpose. Think of Blake standing admist a swarm of bats, the symbolism of the scene harking back to that scene from Batman Begins when Bruce slowly stands amid the swarm of bats to represent his crossing of a threshold on his journey to become Batman. But think of the very last shot in that movie. Blake stands on a platform which is raised up, lifting him towards the equipment you see in the distance, the platform is raised, screen turns black and then "THE DARK KNIGHT RISES"

The title can refer to a lot of things in that movie, Batman coming back from retirement, Batman climbing up out of the pit to save Gotham, Batman rising as a symbol of hope again in Gotham, and Batman’s general victory over Bane and over the tragedy in his own life. But to me it's symbolised extremely clearly in that final shot of the film when we see Blake step forward and that platform RISING to lift him to claim the legacy of Batman that Bruce has passed on to him. The Dark Knight will rise again, with someone else taking up the mantle to keep the symbol alive. I thought it was brilliant.

About Bruce Wayne riding off into the sunset, I actually give credit to that. Because all the talk beforehand was, "I guess Batman's gonna die? He kinda has to right?" and they even mention that in the marketing by showing off that piece of dialogue, "I haven't given them everything. Not yet." But I say kudos to the fact that the movie went at length to show that death isn't the ultimate thing. That you can't justify an empty existence by acting the martyr. By not dying, Bruce is still able to leave the legacy of Batman behind and to move on from the personal tragedy in his own life with Rachel's death by being with Selina. So I was quite glad it didn't turn out that way in all honesty.


I like your interpretation of the final shots of the film more than I actually like those final shots. It would have been better had it been Bruce rising on that platform. It's problematic to see Blake do it. There is nothing Nolan did to make us care about Blake. He's just a hollow character like Ariadne who represents a vessel for Nolan to explain things to the audience. Those shots are definitely part of a larger motif at play with rising and all, for sure. But again, the way he chooses to shoot that final scene don't even have a chance to resonate. I just hate the way Nolan tells stories. Emphasis on TELLS, because he can't show us anything without telling us first. He has to tell us over and over again. When Bruce is telling Blake, "Batman was meant to be a symbol..." I was like HOLY FUCKING SHIT. And not in the same way I was like HOLY FUCKING SHIT later on in this post. Explain everything that anyone with a brain can understand. That's what I mean about Blake being that vessel for the audience to be explained everything. Watch it again, I am sure you will see that it happens in almost every scene that uses Blake.

One of the things I do have to say about Nolan is that his films have strong thematic cores. But his formal techniques are rushed and lazy. He has even said himself that he likes to shoot things as quickly as possible, he doesn't care how. He's a set piece kind of guy who banks on scale of action more than artistic creativity to create suspense. Think of No Country For Old Men and Anton Chigurh versus The Dark Knight and The Joker. The scale of NCFOM is so much smaller yet for me the suspense in every scene within that film was so much stronger because of the way each scene was formed. The buildup with Llewellyn Moss sitting on the bed with the shotgun, the footsteps followed by the shadow of feet at the door. The next shot of the door lock... a payoff that isn't timed for us to predict when it would come. it avoids the conventions of film score and shot-reverse-shot to cue audience reaction to the climax of the scene and bam, the lock comes spinning from the door hard into Llewellyn's gut. HOLY FUCKING SHIT!
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Andy Hughes, in a backlash at Joe Pesci wrote:HEY!!, whats the big deal in all my topics you take the FUCKING PISS OUT OF ME!!. How comes you FUCKING CUNT!!. Not many others do it. Is it cause i can't spell proparly?. Well you don't even know my age. How can a stupid adult pick on a kid. You sad FUCK!. Get a life insted of taking the piss out of the fourm members. I am going to report you to Hellrasier if you keep treating me like this. And hellraiser knows my age.


In Italian 'Pesci' means Fish(Plural),
Just keep that in mind,
Because the next time you hear,
About someone 'Sleeping with the fishes',
It could mean a fate worse than death...

Fin
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