Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Monkei » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:58 am

I'm with MiTT3NZ here.

OL wrote: Suicide Squad, on the other hand... I will admit that, visually, it doesn't look quite as terrible as I was expecting. Action seems cool and all that. But it still ain't winning me over in any other areas. Same complaints as before: Will Smith should not be Deadshot (he can't play anything other than Will Smith. And Deadshot ain't black anyway), Margot Robbie is trying way too hard to come off crazy (she's reminding me of those pathetic kids back in highschool that insist that they aren't right in the head, because dude, insanity is cooool; "I hear voices, teehee!"), and the more I see of Leto's Joker, the less I like it (and I already hated it from the first time I saw it).
Plus, holy shit, they're really working hard to drill in the fact that it's about villains, huh?
The tagline is "Worst Heroes Ever," and twice they felt the need to remind us that they're "bad guys," in those exact words. First the military guy saying "they're bad guys, aren't they?" and then Margot Robbie saying "What? We're the bad guys."
Do they really think audiences are so stupid that they can't catch on if you say it once? Is the final movie going to be this dumbed-down, constantly reminding us of things we already know? It just makes it feel like the movie as a whole is trying too hard to be edgy. Like Kenny said: cringy.

I dunno, I think the only way this movie will manage to win me over is if that fan theory that Leto's Joker isn't the "real" Joker turns out to be true. It's a compelling idea, and it leaves room for a better Joker to eventually emerge. I'm sorry, I just can't see Leto having the necessary presence and weight to go toe-to-toe with Affleck's Batman. It just seems like a total mismatch, especially when this Batman is supposed to be a little older and more grizzled. He should have a Joker with a similarly-older persona, not this "tattooed, trying too hard to be 'street'" bullshit. If it turns out that Leto's Joker is actually a copycat (and a former Robin, no less), I can totally dig it, but otherwise?
Nuh uh.


Well, I really gotta disagree with most of that.

1) The fan theory that Jason became a new Joker would make it better? That theory is stupid as hell, like most fan theories. Fuck that.

2) I also noticed the "we're bad guys" being mentioned twice thingy. That's a little cringy, I'll give you and Kenny that. "Worst heroes ever" is cringy, too, but it's a trailer tagline. These are always cringy and have nothing to do with the movie itself or its creators. Smashing a shopping window to take out some jewels might be a little cringy, too, but that's...

3) ...Harley Quinn. She's one of the most cartoonish and goofy and cringy characters in the Batman universe. So I really won't complain there. She still looks fun to me.

4) I loved Leto's Joker from the beginning, the first image. I dig the look and the more I see of him, the more I'm getting excited for Leto's portrayal. He's a brilliant actor who will absolutely hold his own against Afflek's Batman.

OL wrote:Do they really think audiences are so stupid that they can't catch on if you say it once?

Sorry to break this to you, but audiences are so stupid. :p Especially if you're aiming for an audience as huge as Marvel's, or at least Man of Steel's.

So yeah, I'm really liking what I've seen so far. I like the look of the movie, the character designs, Joker, Deadshot, Harley, Croc, the action, the tone. The DC movie universe shaping up. Like I said, I'm happy.

OL wrote:Wonder Woman is shaping up nicely it seems. I like what I'm seeing. They actually seem to be pulling off one of the most potentially-silly characters possible in a way that's believable and compelling.

Agreed. But in regards to pulling it off I gotta say I'm not surprised at all. All they had to do was to copy Captain America: The First Avenger and sprinkle a good dose of Thor on top. Or the other way round.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby OL » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:11 pm

Monkei wrote:1) The fan theory that Jason became a new Joker would make it better? That theory is stupid as hell, like most fan theories. Fuck that.


What's so bad about it? It actually has precedence in other Batman media (Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker did something vaguely similar -- brilliantly, I might add -- so it isn't purely some fan-made concoction), and it would help to maintain the focus on psychosis that the Batman mythos is supposed to revolve around anyway. The biggest problem with introducing Batman into a wider DC universe like this is the possibility of ignoring the psychological aspects of his mythology; stick him in the Justice League, and it'd be easy to relegate him to the tech guy, the detective, etc, barreling straight past the more intimate elements of his world. It's bad enough that most of the movies thus far have ignored that stuff as it it.
If they introduce the idea that one of his former partners (someone he helped raise, no less) went psycho and started taking after Batman's greatest enemy... that's some really heavy material. It would place a huuuge feeling of guilt on Batman's shoulders. He'd feel responsible, no doubt, and there's plenty of potential justification for it happening.
Adam West actually has a cool theory about how the Joker came to be the way he is; he doesn't like the "Killing Joke" origin story. Obviously, psychosis is something that develops over a long period of time, a long period of abuse, so a one-time event sort of thing like the Killing Joke is unlikely and unrealistic. Instead, he likes the idea that as a child the Joker may have been abducted and abused. And who would the kidnapper have been? A deranged clown of course.
Apply that that to a child version of Robin, except now he's been abducted by the Joker himself... you can see where things could go from there, warping someone's childhood to the point that it warps their whole life. And then it would be a very Two-Face-esque situation, where Batman is always pulling his punches a bit, always trying desperately to bring back the friend he lost a long time ago. That kind of history would make Leto's Joker even more dangerous, because Batman really doesn't want to hurt him.

I've read enough Batman comics to imagine how that stuff could all be applied, and I really don't see how it's a stupid idea. They really want to establish that Batman has a defined history in this universe they're putting together, and something like this would reinforce it a hundredfold.
Plus, so far Leto's Joker just seems like a violent thug, more of a copycat than the manipulative, scheming real deal. All guns and angry movements. No, I haven't see the movie, but that's how they're showing him in the trailers. So revealing that he isn't the real thing would make all the sense in the world at this point.

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Kenny » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:15 pm

Audiences are really not that stupid. If that were the case, then explain the success of the Dark Knight trilogy. People have more sophisticated tastes than you realize, especially since this comes from not only the same studios but the same kind of people.

Even reading the New 52 version, Wonder Woman is not really THAT ridiculous of a character if you take into consideration she comes from an Amazonian society that's deeply rooted in Greek mythology. No different from Thor, though WW has the potential to not be as boring and shitty as Thor has been. She has that whole Xena Warrior Princess going for her in Live Action form which is very cool.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Monkei » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 am

OL wrote:
Monkei wrote:1) The fan theory that Jason became a new Joker would make it better? That theory is stupid as hell, like most fan theories. Fuck that.


What's so bad about it?


Well, I don't dislike the idea in general and I see how it could work in the comics or animated universe, which are oversaturated with the standart versions of their characters anyway. But to think that something like that could be the case here seems nonsensical to me. What is it based on anyway? On people disliking Leto's Joker and a 'J' being tatted somewhere onto his skin? Because 'J' could mean Jason? That theory is ubercringy. It sounds like fan fiction, which is a thing that makes me shudder.

I don't think a movie universe like this is suited for setting up a story like that. It's too limited and doesn't really have enough room for new stuff like that. And it doesn't need it. It's only the third time we're getting the Joker in a movie and they're just about to set the basic DC universe up, it wouldn't make sense to deviate that much from it and invent a new (and comic-y) twist like that. We're already seeing his relation to Harley Quinn in the trailers and leaked footage. He seems Joker-like enough to me. Why should that be Jason.

Kenny wrote: Audiences are really not that stupid. If that were the case, then explain the success of the Dark Knight trilogy. People have more sophisticated tastes than you realize, especially since this comes from not only the same studios but the same kind of people.

Even reading the New 52 version, Wonder Woman is not really THAT ridiculous of a character if you take into consideration she comes from an Amazonian society that's deeply rooted in Greek mythology. No different from Thor, though WW has the potential to not be as boring and shitty as Thor has been. She has that whole Xena Warrior Princess going for her in Live Action form which is very cool.


Well, Thor also had the potential to not be as boring and shitty as Thor. Always depends on who's writing and directing.

And yeah, audiences are that stupid. :p Nolan is great at putting intelligent ideas and themes into mainstream compatible blockbuster movies without scaring audiences off. You don't have to be particularly smart to follow and enjoy The Dark Knight.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby MiTT3NZ » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:07 am

You two are sayin the films were boring n not the character, right?
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Monkei » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:43 pm

Yeah, I meant the movies, or rather the second one. The first one is alright I think.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Kenny » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:17 pm

I never read a Thor comic, so fill in the blanks.

And back with audiences not being that stupid, they didn't constantly remind us the Joker was the bad guy.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby MiTT3NZ » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:46 pm

Batman constantly reminds everyone he's Batman.

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Monkei » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:59 pm

:lol:
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby OL » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:40 pm

Monkei wrote:
OL wrote:
Monkei wrote:1) The fan theory that Jason became a new Joker would make it better? That theory is stupid as hell, like most fan theories. Fuck that.


What's so bad about it?


Well, I don't dislike the idea in general and I see how it could work in the comics or animated universe, which are oversaturated with the standart versions of their characters anyway. But to think that something like that could be the case here seems nonsensical to me. What is it based on anyway? On people disliking Leto's Joker and a 'J' being tatted somewhere onto his skin? Because 'J' could mean Jason? That theory is ubercringy.


Oh, absolutely, yeah. I wasn't even aware of the "J" thing. If that's all someone was going on, then yeah, I agree it's just a stupid theory.
The evidence I was thinking of had to do with much more subtle clues though. I just found this video, which actually explains it better than I was going to. They mention the J, but there's a lot more in there as well. The most compelling part, to me, is at about 3:50 in the video, where they actually talk about some dialogue from the Batman v. Superman trailer. Check it all out for yourself. I actually find the theory even more compelling after watching this. I hadn't even thought about the fact that Dick Grayson becomes his own version of the Joker in The Dark Knight Strikes Again.


phpBB [video]
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Kenny » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:44 pm

Batman can do it cause he's Batman.

Other people telling you who are the bad guys more than once? No.


On a side note, these fan theories tend to be more creative and clever than the actual thing they're theorizing about.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Calshot » Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:23 pm

Image
Lauren Cohan has been confirmed to play Martha Wayne. Diane Lane is Martha Kent in Man of Steel and Dawn of Justice. Marisa Tomei will be playing Aunt May in the upcoming Spiderman movie. I approve of this milftacular comic book casting trend.

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby OL » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:14 pm

I can't remember if I've mentioned it before, but I remember flipping past the movie Hollywoodland on tv months ago, and it had Ben Affleck and Diane Lane in an "amorous" relationship. And Affleck was playing George Reeves, the original actor who played Superman.

Batman was banging Superman's mom while cosplaying as her son.
Dass messed up.

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Monkei » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:56 am

:lol:

Weird that there's no fake BvS trailer yet, using scenes from that as a set up for the battle..

I've gotta say I also like the Jason theory better after that video.. I still don't think it's very likely they'd do something like that in the movies, but I've thought about it for a while, it's interesting. I guess I might end up liking it if it turned out to be true. Why not. In that case I'd want Matthew McConaughey to be the real Joker!
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby MiTT3NZ » Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:14 am

I don't think Harley would be a big fan of someone impersonating her Mistah J tbh.
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