Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby MiTT3NZ » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:20 pm

Okay, so I just rewatched Man of Steel in prep for BvS, and I gotta say, it isn't half as shit as people make it out to be. Hell, it's not even shit. It's a solid, enjoyable film. Now, I don't know if it's because I'm not as pretentious as everyone else when it comes to films, but I don't get the hate. Especially all the "senseless destruction" bollocks everyone goes on about. It's almost as if everyone wanted the old age lame excuse of "at least all those buildings that happened to be affected were derelict and due to be demolished" (I swear, if they use it in Batman V Superman I'm gonna kiss Snyder's feet if I ever meet him)

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Peter » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:53 pm

MiTT3NZ wrote: Okay, so I just rewatched Man of Steel in prep for BvS, and I gotta say, it isn't half as shit as people make it out to be. Hell, it's not even shit. It's a solid, enjoyable film. Now, I don't know if it's because I'm not as pretentious as everyone else when it comes to films, but I don't get the hate. Especially all the "senseless destruction" bollocks everyone goes on about. It's almost as if everyone wanted the old age lame excuse of "at least all those buildings that happened to be affected were derelict and due to be demolished" (I swear, if they use it in Batman V Superman I'm gonna kiss Snyder's feet if I ever meet him)


The first time I watched it was on my own, on Blu Ray and I was meh.

The second time I watched it was on Thursday night at a double feature before BvS and I really enjoyed it. The story made more sense, it was well paced, the story seemed ok, but after what came after, seemed like a rock hard story. The soundtrack was perfect as always from Zimmer, and yea, I really enjoyed it.

The bad thing about all of that though, was realising that right before what was to come next.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Kenny » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:01 am

MoS is alright. It's just kinda boring but not as boring as Superman Returns.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Monkei » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:07 am

OL wrote:
Monkei wrote:
Riku Rose wrote:
Monkei wrote:
Riku Rose wrote: I've asked a million times why a team needs Batman when they have people like Superman and that didn't get answered here.


Seriously? He beat Superman. He wiped the floor with him, which is a pretty good answer to me. What good is having people like Superman on a team when you don't have the guy who's better? He's got the brains, the skills, technology, money to build a sweet tower on the moon, I don't get what's not to get about that.


That was just down to the kryptonite. [...]


Well, so was Superman beating Doomsday. Sometimes it's just down to the kryptonite I guess. What counts is that Bats found a way of beating him, being determined as hell and using the right strategy and tools. It's not like Comissioner Gordon could have done it the same way.

And well yeah, there really wasn't that much he could do during the final battle. But he did use one of his kryptonite-gas grenades to prevent Doomsday from releasing another critical energy burst at a crucial moment, making it possible for Clark to go in for the kill while Diana was holding him back. That killing blow was achieved by the three of them working together.

It's always good to have him on your team, even if you're strong enough to punch a hole into the moon. Why does this even have to be discussed? :p


Yeah, I'm reading spoilers without having seen the movie. Whatever.

Anyway, regardless of whatever he seems to be in the movie, Batman's main value as a member of the JL in the comics is that he's a detective. "The World's Greatest" detective, as it's always put. Whenever there's shit to be figured out (and let's face it, most stories in existence try to build upon a mystery of some kind), he's the one to do it. While seemingly everyone else serves as the brute strength in some capacity, Batman is the brainpower. That also makes him the strategist as well.


I know, I know. I was just talking about things that actually were in the movie. And while you see him doing some detective stuff, that whole "world's greatest detective" thing still doesn't really come across the way the comics depict it. But I guess they'll bring more of that into the upcoming DCCU flicks.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Riku Rose » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:57 am

Monkei wrote:
Riku Rose wrote:
That was just down to the kryptonite. [...]


Well, so was Superman beating Doomsday. Sometimes it's just down to the kryptonite I guess. What counts is that Bats found a way of beating him, being determined as hell and using the right strategy and tools. It's not like Comissioner Gordon could have done it the same way.


Lex had the same idea of how to kill Superman and possibly had it before Batman so it's not like he was the only one.


OL wrote:Anyway, regardless of whatever he seems to be in the movie, Batman's main value as a member of the JL in the comics is that he's a detective. "The World's Greatest" detective, as it's always put. Whenever there's shit to be figured out (and let's face it, most stories in existence try to build upon a mystery of some kind), he's the one to do it. While seemingly everyone else serves as the brute strength in some capacity, Batman is the brainpower. That also makes him the strategist as well.


Just want to get out of the way before hand that my experience with DC is pretty much just movies and the Arkham games. I don't read comics but know some of the big stories like Dark Knight Returns and Killing Joke etc.

So is Batman just the Alfred of the Justice League? He sits back and tells others what to do? I know in the Marvel films you have people like Black Widow who Hulk could kill with a flick but she is normally fighting on the ground with Hawkeye and Cap while Hulk is fighting alongside Thor against the bigger threat. It seems in the Justice League that other then Batman pretty much everyone could knock down the Empire State building in one shot (Don't know Cyborgs powers). If he is the Alfred type of the team I can picture him sitting in a control room planning stuff, I just imagine he will stand there doing jack shit and jumping out of the way during the Justice League's big fight like he did in this film while everyone else actually does something.


MiTT3NZ wrote: Okay, so I just rewatched Man of Steel in prep for BvS, and I gotta say, it isn't half as shit as people make it out to be. Hell, it's not even shit. It's a solid, enjoyable film. Now, I don't know if it's because I'm not as pretentious as everyone else when it comes to films, but I don't get the hate. Especially all the "senseless destruction" bollocks everyone goes on about. It's almost as if everyone wanted the old age lame excuse of "at least all those buildings that happened to be affected were derelict and due to be demolished" (I swear, if they use it in Batman V Superman I'm gonna kiss Snyder's feet if I ever meet him)


I only watched in once back when it came out but I remember the film just being boring. I actually didn't mind the city being destroyed as that's what a fight between those two people would do to a city. My main issue was the pointless flashbacks, they just seemed random and trying too hard to copy Batman Begins. With Batman Begins the flashbacks show why he is becoming Batman and you understand his motive but in Man of Steel he seemed to become Superman just because he's strong and his dad kept telling him he was special. Just like this movie it took an hour and half too feel like anything was happening. I don't need action 24/7 but the slower parts don't have any interesting dialogue or character progression at all.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby MiTT3NZ » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:30 am

Didn't bore me tbh.

And if the Justice League are the army, Batman's the Splinter Cell. He's the leader, brains, tactician, etc. He gets behind enemy lines whilst the others are doing the main fighting. He crawls through air ducts, uploads to mainframes, and has the sarcastic "checkmate" banter with the big bad. He is Batman. He's the most dangerous man on the planet. He's run through every possible scenario in his sleep and has a plan for everything. Batman beats anyone with prep time. It's the unwritten law of the universe.

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby KiBa » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:24 pm

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby OL » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:46 pm

Still won't see the movie for another week, but I am impatient, so I've been reading spoilers and whatnot without worry. And honestly, I have to say, it seems like all the complaining and criticizing that the movie is getting (outside of pacing problems or whatever, which I can't comment on) stems from two points:
a.) People who don't get that the movie is part of the first act in a much larger story that DC is obviously planning (and as such, it doesn't provide answers for everything, and it leaves a lot of loose ends; no big deal if you keep in mind that there's apparently a lot more to come). It's not standalone.
and b.) People who are only really familiar with the titular characters based on their status as pop culture icons, rather than knowing the characters from the wide, wide variety of comic iterations they've been party to. I can't even count how many times I've read comments now, saying "Batman/Superman isn't supposed to do that," from people that think they know all about the characters because they've seen a few movies or cartoons, and yet I can reference places in the comics providing precedent for just about all of it.

From everything I'm reading, having been a bit of a DC fanboy in the past, I'm getting excited as hell at the possible places these DC movies are heading in. The fact that they're already teasing
the New Gods and Darkseid
is friggin mindblowing to me, and I can't wait to see that really come to fruition. Otherwise, it seems like they're including so many references to obscure stories and lore elements from the comics that obviously (very obvious to a DC Comics dork, at least) they're really planning this shit out much more meticulously than mainstream critics seem to understand. And I'm wholeheartedly excited for it.
Again, I can't comment on the movie itself (if it's not entertaining, then so be it, maybe it's bad), but from all the details I'm hearing about it, it seems to me like this is (or at least, is leading up to) the most accurate live-action adaptation the DC Universe has ever gotten in movies (outside of Suicide Squad, I mean; they're already fucking that up hard. But I think that's more an issue with David Ayer).
It's funny, usually people bitch and bitch when things go astray from source material. Yet here, it seems like the filmmakers are really digging deep to do it justice (heh) and be accurate, but nobody is happy about it.

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Riku Rose » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:56 pm

It's just a really poorly made movie. I think the main problem people have in terms of what characters are doing is that it doesn't make sense even if you explain what they're like. Lex contradicts his plan from the whole film in the last half and hour and then contradicts his new one. He just has no motivation outside of being an evil rich guy for the sake of being the bad guy.

Also the first 90 minutes nothing happens. You could rewrite it and have more character development in 30 minutes.

People seem to have an issue with Batman
killing. I have no problem with the last guy he kills as he has to just like Superman has to in Man of Steel. I'm pretty sure that Batman doesn't blow up a car filled with people before he even knows they're going to attack him and then attach a cable with people still in it and swing it around in the comics though.


Also the reason Batman and Superman team up? It makes Jeff Goldblum uploading a virus to an alien spaceship seem like Shakespeare.
They stop fighting because they find out both their mothers are called Martha. That's enough for Batman to think that Superman is a good guy, literally nothing else is said between them apart from that to stop them fighting. Neither one of them gives the other any reason to suddenly see they was wrong for fighting in the first place, but their mothers both named Martha so let's team up.


If they're setting up future films they should at least make a film that can stand on it's own. I don't know anything about Marvel outside of the films but whenever they set up a future film it isn't in a way that the current film you're watching won't make sense for another 3 years. Heck most of the plot holes I had issues with most likely won't even be resolved as it isn't even stuff they will get back to.

The annoying thing is that I don't think there was a bad performence in the film, I didn't even mind Lex like most people. The main issue was the writing and director, if they announce that Snyder is out of the DC movie universe I'll jump back on the wagon straight away. I just have no faith in this series after Man of Steel and this movie.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Kenny » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:01 pm

Even comics with cliffhangers at the end and long episodic arcs are self-contained per issue. That's really the main issue with this movie, it feels largely disjointed due to the fact they crammed too much at once. It feels like a "moments" film, not a full film.

And I don't buy the whole "it's the first part of a series of films" argument. The first Iron Man movie would've been terrible if they crammed Hulk and Captain America in there and kept vaguely alluding to an Avengers film by having Thor pop in and spout some random junk about Loki before taking off. There wouldn't have been enough time to say who Tony Stark was and why he became what he became, except for people who already read the source material and have a "fuck everyone who doesn't know already" attitude.

This is why other films like Star Wars 7 and even elements of the newer Marvel films are becoming pretty abysmal. They spend too much time building up to future films and less time sitting down with the audience and letting us get to know what's going on with the current characters. Not only that, they're blowing their load too early. This is what I feared would happen and that's pretty much what happened, unfortunately.

Of course DC fans are liking it no matter what. It's the "dawwwk 'n' gwiitty" event movie they've been waiting to see. I mean, have at it but I'm looking forward to seeing films like Deadpool again. And its sequel.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby MiTT3NZ » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:34 pm

One word: Quality.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby OL » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:39 pm

Riku Rose wrote: It's just a really poorly made movie. I think the main problem people have in terms of what characters are doing is that it doesn't make sense even if you explain what they're like. Lex contradicts his plan from the whole film in the last half and hour and then contradicts his new one. He just has no motivation outside of being an evil rich guy for the sake of being the bad guy.


Just in regards to that particular point, I think the problem is partly that there were scenes cut from the PG-13 version (one of which is making the rounds on youtube now), and partly that even in seeing the cut footage, most people don't understand what's happening.
Again, don't know about the rest of the movie, but the deleted scene shows Lex
in a giant pool of goopy blood (the likely reason it was cut) on a Kryptonian ship, apparently communicating with a horned being holding three boxes. It's a reference to the New Gods of Apokalypse, who, in all likelihood, were probably controlling Lex in some way. Or at least something similar to that.

Whenever the R-rated cut finally rolls around, I have a feeling people might warm up to it a bit more. It's apparently going to be about a half hour longer, probably going to clear a few things up a little more cleanly.


Kenny wrote:Of course DC fans are liking it no matter what. It's the "dawwwk 'n' gwiitty" event movie they've been waiting to see.


No need to talk about it like anyone who enjoys it is a blind, allegiant idiot. If anything, the dark and gritty vibe is something that a lot of DC fans aren't that keen on. Maybe they prefer it for Batman, but for other characters they often tend to expect something a little brighter and more hopeful.
Personally, I've seen so many variations on the characters that I can accept just about anything so long as I'm entertained. DC have revamped their entire comics line multiple times with different approaches, not to mention the various Elseworlds they've dabbled in, to the extent that it's hard to even nail down a concrete "proper" version anymore.
So all I'm saying is that I have no problem with the vibe they've gone for, and the apparent direction they're heading in (which, outside of you guys, is the biggest complaint everyone else seems to have).
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Kenny » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:05 pm

It's honestly fair game if everyone else who doesn't like it is written off as ignorant to the comic origins of the characters (which I don't think is really relevant, the motives of the characters here were questionable and contradictory). And that has been the response for the people who did like it.

I don't want to be too harsh on it, though. The good qualities of the film are the visual aesthetic and the way they handled Batman. I actually prefer this version, he's actually badass again unlike Bale's lukewarm version. I didn't really care for Affleck's portrayal of Bruce Wayne, but as Batman he killed it. Even though she was basically unnecessarily tacked on, Wonder Woman was also fantastic. It was actually awesome to see her fight.
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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby Amir » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:06 am

I liked it. I grew up a Marvel kid so I'm ignorant on most things DC besides Batman, so a lot of the Justice League stuff was lost on me, but I liked Affleck, Gadot and Cavill, though Cavill wasn't given much to work with, in this cut at least.

Snyder's hit-and-miss with me, I love his Dawn of the Dead remake, thought 300 was OK, was disappointed by Watchmen and bored by Man of Steel, but this is probably my 2nd favourite film of his.

I look forward to the extended cut of BvS, not sure I'm too keen on the actual Justice League films, though, DC characters such as Aquaman and The Flash have never really appealed to me.

While I'm excited to watch this again at home, I can't get excited for the home release of The Force Awakens, or most of the MCU films. From the recent batch of MCU films my favourites have been Ant-Man and Winter Solider, and from the Fox/Marvel movies I enjoyed Deadpool and really liked Days of Future Past, reminded me how much I loved X2. I definitely preferred BvS to Age of Ultron.

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Re: Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

Postby MiTT3NZ » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:24 pm

OL, I'm pretty confident you'll like it. It's better than the Burton films, and I preferred it to any of Marvel's. In many ways it's a very unconventional film, which seems to be everyone's main problem with it, but I like that. It really feels like a comic book in live action, in particular the "prelude to cross-over event X" that DC tends to love so much. This isn't a self-contained film that slots in between others.

As I've previously mentioned, any DC comic adaptation seems to suffer from a lack of narration/inner monologue. That's how they tell most of their stories, and their best are usually smothered with them. I reckon the fact that we can kinda fill in the blanks means we'll enjoy it much more than others do. A lot if shit doesn't need explaining to us. For instance...

The whole "I won't kill you because our mothers have the same name" thing isn't what everyone makes it out to be. It's quite clear that Batman realises he's just as human as the rest of us, and that when it came down to it, his final words were more concerned with the safety of innocents rather than some statement of defiance.


Personally, I always thought that the characters were well known enough to not need so much prior knowledge, but the reactions seem to suggest otherwise. There's been a lot of prodding and hole-picking going on with this film, and for the life of me I'm not entirely sure why. People seem to just wanna jump on the hate bandwagon coz it's popular at the moment. I actually listened to some guy's reaction who went so far as to moan about how it's never explained why Wayne Manor is overgrown and abandoned. Yet these are the exact same people who slated TDKRises for explaining absolutely everything.

The film is very enjoyable. My two main gripes with were that there simply wasn't enough of Superman (I'm a massive fan of Kav-Il... see what I did there?) and that we still don't know if the dead Robin is Jason Todd or Dick Grayson. Gonna be very disappointed if there's no Nightwing in future films.

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