Nelson Mandela

[mue 26]

It was not a comparison but a general point about the definition since others (and their supporters) also justified violence according to their world view, to improve things for "their people".

Well yeah, murderous lunatics do tend to try and justify their actions. But Hitler, Bin Laden and what they were fighting for are not in any way comparable to Mandela and his cause. But then, you weren't comparing them apparently, so...I have no clue as to why you brought them into the conversation...

And those were actual statistics from that research paper. Calling me an apologist just for stating that is as dishonest as me calling you a terrorism/violence apologist.

It is not the statistic itself that is the problem (though you fail to cite where you got it). My problem is why you chose to mention it. And why else would you have randomly brought up that little titbit of information if it was not in an attempt to downplay how disgusting, racist and abusive the apartheid system was? Honestly I'm asking you, what point were you trying to make?

"in a way it got worse".

And in many ways it got better too, but you didn't mention that, which would lead one to believe that you feel South Africa was "better" under apartheid. Sometimes what is missing can be as telling as what is included.

You're kind of set on labeling those with criticism as pro-apartheid anyway. Just because I don't list obvious bad things about it and criticize a person's actions doesn't mean that I defend that regime.

I'm not really set on labelling anyone anything, but if you make a post stating obvious bad things about South Africa now, yet completely omit any mention of the obvious bad things about South Africa under apartheid, while also throwing in a couple evokative "statistics" and phrases, then your going to come across a certain way. For the record, I don't think your pro-apartheid or anything, but for the future you should be aware of how people will read your posts.

[Kenny]

It's kind of insane reading you justifying one act of murderous violence and condemning another.

I'm just sayin', yo. Just sayin'.

[mue 26]

Just imagine if Cape Town were London. Imagine seeing two million white people living in shacks and mud huts along the M25 as you make your way into the city, where most of the biggest houses and biggest jobs are occupied by a small, affluent to wealthy group of black people. There are no words for the resentment that would still simmer there.

From this good piece
http://www.okwonga.com/?p=869

[south carmain]

Just imagine if Cape Town were London. Imagine seeing two million white people living in shacks and mud huts along the M25 as you make your way into the city, where most of the biggest houses and biggest jobs are occupied by a small, affluent to wealthy group of black people. There are no words for the resentment that would still simmer there.

From this good piece
http://www.okwonga.com/?p=869

This is similar to the reasons that led hitler in to massacring the jews, he saw them well off while Germans were suffering under the backlash of WW1 which fueled his hate towards them.

[mue 26]

And the Jewish people in Germany at that time had established a systematised form of racist government through which non-Jewish were forced to live in bantustans or slums, were only allowed to work menial jobs that profited the Jewish, and had no access to decent education at all (unless you were the son of a chief)? The Jewish had just got rich off their own hard work and were not in any way (As far as I know) oppressing the non-jew. This is nothing like apartheid.

Honestly, some of the things you guys are coming out with are ridiculous. Mandela wanting to topple apartheid is in no way whatsoever comparable to Hitler wanting to eradicate all Jewish people.

[MiTT3NZ]

Why do people consider "Jewish" a race? I thought "Israelites" or "Hebrews" was the race and Judaism was the religion... This begs the question, did Hitler hate the race or the religion?

[Sonikku]

In a huge embarrassment for South Africa, the so-called hand sign language person employed and allowed to stand by leaders of several nations was in fact a total fraud.



http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mandela-ser ... faking-it/

And it appears he had done his bogus hand signs in the past and even had a formal complaint levied against him, that was basically ignored.

"It was horrible, an absolute circus, really, really bad," she said. "Only he can understand those gestures." The man also did sign interpretation at an event last year that was attended by South African President Jacob Zuma, Druchen said. At that appearance, a deaf person in the audience videotaped the event and gave it to the federation for the deaf, which analyzed the video, prepared a report about it and a submitted a formal complaint to the ANC, Druchen said.

In their complaint, the federation suggested that the man should take the five years of training needed to become a qualified sign language interpreter in South Africa. But the ANC never responded, Druchen said.

[MiTT3NZ]

That is awesome.

[Sonikku]

And by "close by leaders" I mean REALLY close.

[south carmain]

And the Jewish people in Germany at that time had established a systematised form of racist government through which non-Jewish were forced to live in bantustans or slums, were only allowed to work menial jobs that profited the Jewish, and had no access to decent education at all (unless you were the son of a chief)? The Jewish had just got rich off their own hard work and were not in any way (As far as I know) oppressing the non-jew. This is nothing like apartheid.

Honestly, some of the things you guys are coming out with are ridiculous. Mandela wanting to topple apartheid is in no way whatsoever comparable to Hitler wanting to eradicate all Jewish people.

Actually no I didn't compare Mandela directly to hitler I'm saying even the worst of dictators had their reasons and there's nothing that makes the murder of innocents. And Mandela didn't exactly experience any of that, he was royalty who got a good education

[mue 26]

I'm saying even the worst of dictators had their reasons and there's nothing that makes the murder of innocents.

I agree, but there is a world of difference between Hitler's reasons and Mandela's. Obviously both are still abhorrent, but I don't think they can be compared, and I think it's disingenuous for you to bring up Hitler and then claim that you are not bringing him up for comparison.

It usually was the well heeled or foreign educated who led the anti colonial resistance movements. It doesn't diminish the anger you would feel if everyone who looked like you and was from the same place as you was being brutally oppressed.

[south carmain]

Well being a gypsy I kind of know what it's like to be looked at like shit by large portions of the population, I wouldn't say that excuses anyone from bombing Civilians. My mother being catholic Irish doesn't make me believe that the IRA bombings were right either. Sorry but I just can't accept a just cause excuses inhumane actions

[mue 26]

I never said I agreed with his use of violence, you know that right? But I still have huge respect for him regardless. He did what he felt was necessary for his country, and he did play a huge role of bringing down the unrepentant evil of apartheid.

[south carmain]

^well you say you don't defend it but then excuse it by saying it was necessary. it's not like all whites there were living in luxury either, I don't think my great great grandfather had it better than blacks for growing up in slavery on a farm there

[Sonikku]