Charlie Hebdo

[Rakim]

You guys following this? For reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting

Backwards and brainwashed they are. Religion is incompatible with a civilized society.

[Axm]

Religion is incompatible with a civilized society.

Bit too generalized a statement for my tastes. There's nothing wrong with religion as a general thing.
The grand, grand majority of people who practice a religion are completely decent and civilized. Religion doesn't turn you into Osama Bin Laden by default.
The problems come up when it's used to control the downtrodden, the weak-minded, the individual-incapable. Oftentimes people who can't think for themselves turn to one religion or another for all the answers, and if they're just wacko enough, they'll turn to violence to force their views on others as well. And then there are regions like much of the Middle East, where life is all around pretty crappy to begin with, so it becomes even easier to sway people under a belief system.
Blaming religion is silly to me. A suit-wearing pastor from Wisconsin ain't exactly on the same level as these extremist gunmen.

[Nahovil]

While blaming religion may be rash, faith undoubtedly excuses things otherwise quite questionable in a modern day mind and society.


These honourable people died by their beliefs. Hopefully, that serves a purpose for the existing.

[Nahovil]

Meanwhile, Boko Haram go on killing by the thousands.

[Kenny]

This is a more extreme example, but people with religious views (even mild) affect politics and have been proven to hinder scientific progress. That is something that makes me more militant against it.

If you want to believe, that's fine. However, if it starts affecting the way of life for many people in an adverse way, GTFO. In the case of this, Muslims really need to start voicing against this in droves otherwise they'll have to admit their religion is NOT once of peace but of fear and subservience. Imagine if there was a mandate to "kill whitey if we aren't treated equally" during the Civil Rights era and Civil Rights leaders maintain "wait, these protests are about peace and harmony!" Bit of a contradiction there.

Though honestly, the very same can be said about the Abrahamic religions and so forth. There's a reason why many people are becoming more "spiritual but not religious" now.

[Axm]

I guess people forgot all the atheists that committed mass genocide in the name of their ideals (stalin, mao, khmer rouge, the DPRK). You don't have to be religious to excuses violence and human rights abuses.

Also saying religion has been proven to hinder scientific progress is a bit unfair when you consider monks worked hard to copy scientific books before the invention of the printing press, that the caliphates preserved and worked upon ancient greek and Byzantine knowledge (who were also a Christian and the heart of Europe's scientific world until the Ottomans conquered Constantinople). Religion isn't only the European dark ages, extreme islam and the American bible belt.

[St. Elmo's Fire]

I don't buy into the "all Muslims are evil" BS (and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here doing that either) and actually quite dislike the way some of the media does that. And how on news stories that allow comments, the ones with the highest number of thumbs are often of a fairly extreme anti-Islam "send 'em all back" mentality with plenty people agreeing.

A lot of the hatred seems to come from the existence of Israel though. Because us in the "civilised" world have been interfering with/dropping bombs on their part of the world for a long time now, is there any possible good outcome, or are we stuck in some never ending spiral?
Other than being allied with those that want to be (like Saudi Arabia, where Bin Laden and some of the hijackers are originally from...) across there, I think at this point I'm of the opinion that we should just leave shit alone across there. Brutal dictators may seem pretty crappy to all of us, but they seem to be a necessary evil to keep the apparently sizeable contingent of nutters in some of those countries in line. When the West helps bring them down, the places seem to end up worse off, especially Iraq...

[Henry Spencer]

The few always ruin it for the many. To me, it's just humans using something, anything they can as an excuse for their killings. At least with plenty of serial killers - they don't lie to themselves by using any other excuses other than they were driven by pure hatred for others. I just find it sad that humans get driven into believing in nothing other than their faith [which is turn has been re-edited so much by now that the original verses and texts and meaning are long gone], not even believing in themselves or their individuality [the faith being before all, unwavering and always right... ] and see everybody else who isn't like them, as the enemy. Time and time again, it's proving to me that human nature can be dark and senseless when it just shouldn't be, but what can you do to stop people who are already steadfast in their belief? What can you do to stop them? Kill them all in a massive genocidal attack? Persecute them all as one [as in, send them back to their hellish country that some Europeans are definitely swiftly moving towards now] and further drive them to hate? Just hate them all as one? Is that really the answer?

That awful story of what is happening in Nigeria [and in other poorer countries all of the time] is yet another example of senseless killings in the name of something that frankly shouldn't be taught [humans who are once again framing the story as they see fit]. It's a doctrine to be taught that all other people who don't follow your way of life should be "cleansed" - what gives them the right to decide such things and to kill on such an awful scale.

Let's just say that religion was wiped from the face of the planet, it wouldn't stop any killings. The excuses to justify those killings would just change. People will, unfortunately, always find ways to hate each other. It's really tragic and sad.

[Kenny]

Let's just say that religion was wiped from the face of the planet, it wouldn't stop any killings. The excuses to justify those killings would just change. People will, unfortunately, always find ways to hate each other. It's really tragic and sad.

This is true, people are assholes.

But I'm more for the advancement of human technology. Anything that impedes that needs to be set aside or straight up eradicated.

Also saying religion has been proven to hinder scientific progress is a bit unfair when you consider monks worked hard to copy scientific books before the invention of the printing press, that the caliphates preserved and worked upon ancient greek and Byzantine knowledge (who were also a Christian and the heart of Europe's scientific world until the Ottomans conquered Constantinople). Religion isn't only the European dark ages, extreme islam and the American bible belt.

And Sir Isaac Newton was a deist. Belief systems back in the day filled in the holes that baffled people like earth rotation around the sun and the coping with dying (which I think is the reason why religion even exists in the first place), but now are becoming more irrelevant. There are even some scientist who are still religious like Francis Collins of the Human Genome Project.

That's all fine and dandy as long as you're not brownnosing and negatively impacting other people's lives, that's the only time I'll have a huge problem with it.

[south carmain]

Belief systems back in the day filled in the holes that baffled people like earth rotation around the sun and the coping with dying (which I think is the reason why religion even exists in the first place), but now are becoming more irrelevant. There are even some scientist who are still religious like Francis Collins of the Human Genome Project.

Belief systems (though I wouldn't use such a broad term in this case as if they are all similar when they're way too diverse to just throw together like that) back in the day focused on improving people's lives. Believe it or not but before Christianity came to Europe, human sacrifices, killing your daughters, sexual slavery and forcing people to fight to death for the amusement of nobles were very common place and thanks to the support Christians gave each other they had a much higher survival rate during plagues than any other religious group even though they were made up mostly of the poorest classes of the city. Also I don't think telling people that they have a high risk of going to hell is going to help them cope better with dying, Pagan religions were probably more suitable for that. The bible also doesn't say anything about the earth rotating the sun...

Religion today has the same use as it did back then, to bring guidance to those who feel lost in their lives and keep communities together.

[Rakim]

The bible also doesn't say anything about the earth rotating the sun...

Then why'd that Italian nigga get excommunicated for my dude? Tell me that shit then son.

[south carmain]

The bible also doesn't say anything about the earth rotating the sun...

Then why'd that Italian nigga get excommunicated for my dude? Tell me that shit then son.

Because the Catholic church liked to believe that earth (and as a result humans) were the center of the universe. The Catholic church and it's views (especially the old ones) are not entirely representative of Christianity or the bible. The pope also declared the crusades that had more than a million die yet Jesus taught to do the exact contrary of war.

Also the Catholic church now believes that the earth revolves around the sun and even believe in the big bang just to show how things have change.

[Kenny]

The bible also doesn't say anything about the earth rotating the sun...

I thought we were talking about religion in the broader sense, like sun worship and all that (forgot some people believed the sun revolved around the earth back then). Basically the "god in the gaps" argument.

You can argue that it can bring communities together and bring guidance to those who need it, but it also purposely excludes and condemns people based on orientation, identity, and other silly little things. I'm more focused on cracking down on the negative aspects more than anything else. I know people who believe in crazy things like tarot card readings and all that but they aren't harming nor condemning anybody and as far as I know aren't stopping any helpful technological progresses, so they can believe in the sun god Ra for all I care.

[Nahovil]

I guess people forgot all the atheists that committed mass genocide in the name of their ideals (stalin, mao, khmer rouge, the DPRK). You don't have to be religious to excuses violence and human rights abuses.

While what you said about Christian monk's general contribution for science is true, this argument is truly baffling

[Calshot]

The bible also doesn't say anything about the earth rotating the sun...

Then why'd that Italian nigga get excommunicated for my dude? Tell me that shit then son.

Galileo couldn't show the presence of stellar parallax with his theory. If the earth was moving, then you should be able to see the stars shifting position over the course of time. He also wrote a book where the character arguing for heliocentricism (Galileo's view) was smart and well-spoken while the character arguing for geocentricism (the Church's view) was a dumbass.

Because the Catholic church liked to believe that earth (and as a result humans) were the center of the universe. The Catholic church and it's views (especially the old ones) are not entirely representative of Christianity or the bible. The pope also declared the crusades that had more than a million die yet Jesus taught to do the exact contrary of war.

Also the Catholic church now believes that the earth revolves around the sun and even believe in the big bang just to show how things have change.

Hell, George Lemaître, the father of the Big Bang theory and the first person to propose that the universe was expanding was a Catholic priest.