Feminism

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Re: Feminism

Postby mue 26 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:30 am

A few months ago you said that people shouldn't step in if a mother refuses to take thier child to a doctor due to religious reasons. Now you think a soldier who risks their life for you and comes back with PTSD is the same as someone who is a bit upset someone called them a cunt on Twitter.


You know, I wouldn't expect you to ever actually say anything worthwhile in this thread, or any thread for that matter. First you throw unrelated insults at me, and now you're bringing up things I said in unrelated discussions, because you actually have fuck all of anything worthwhile to say. You are easily the worst member on this forum, bar none. And trust me, it wouldn't be hard for me to throw far better insults at you than the pathetic ones you're throwing at me, as this forum is full of years worth of golden material fit for that purpose.

But I can't be bothered, because you are just a really sad guy basically. But I will say it's no surprise at all to see you trying to downplay the harm of cyber abuse, since you are exactly the type of pathetic individual who does cyber bully girls who turn him down, and then post a thread boasting about it on game forums for e props. And you have the cheek to call me sick in the head, you joker.
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Re: Feminism

Postby St. Elmo's Fire » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:46 am

This whole pay gap thing, I'm not convinced it exists. Plenty big companies are just corporate cunts (is that word OK to use in this topic!?) nowadays who will pay their employees as little as they can get away with, male or female. Are we talking high end jobs, like CEOs etc. where the applicants have more room to demand a higher wage? 'cos if it's normal by the hour type work, then I can honestly say I've absolutely never ever heard of it being standard practice, ANYWHERE, to give the females a lower rate. If it does happen though then yeah, it is a bit outta order.
Female tennis players? They play best of three, men pay best of five so they kinda deserve to be paid less, for doing less work.

I think feminism (in the proper meaning of the word, i.e. equality, rather than femiNazi attitudes) is a force much better spent in parts of the world where women genuinely do face oppression on a regular basis, something that isn't a problem here in the UK to anywhere near the same extent. Men looking at and objectifying good looking women isn't really even a sexism issue IMO, it's simply what males tend to do, PLUS the females who get paid to do that sort of work KNOW exactly what they are getting into, so they probably don't appreciate the noise from the "Ban this filth NOW!" crowd either. Obviously some poor young Russian girl smuggled here on prostitution business is completely different, but that sort of crime is SO far from something that mere "feminism" can fix it's unreal, it's a job for the police and intelligence agencies to deal with.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Yukupo » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:05 pm

@Riku's 'joke' post
Yukupo wrote:The 'everyone is to sensitive these days' argument is bullshit. You don't want to admit that these things are ingrained in society and that maybe, hey, you're a little bit sexist/racist/homophobic/etc too. Its easy for a bunch of white men to sit around and go "Yeah I agree that's not offensive, these people are too sensitive!"

Your experiences != everyone else's.


@Shenmuedabest
What's your point? People are jerks to each other? I don't see what that has to do with feminism. Was critique on the shirt warranted? Sure. Insults? Nah.

@St. Elmo's Fire
If you all want to live by "there are worse things in the world so there's no point in doing anything to make life better here" then stop complaining about anything. Just spend every day being thankful you're not somewhere worse. Forget social progress. Or does social progress only matter when its an issue you care about?

Also, there's totally a difference between sexual attraction and objectification. Sexual attraction is a natural feeling. Objectification is treating women like they aren't people. You are arguing its what we do, but society is set up to be a world for men, not women. Its socially acceptable to do it so that's why you think its okay. You're using this as an excuse to stay in the dark ages when we know better. We can see the result of how women are treated and its not pretty.

Feminism is about educating people so that slowly but surely attitudes change. What's wrong with a more caring and compassionate world?

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Re: Feminism

Postby St. Elmo's Fire » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:30 pm

Well the first part of your second paragraph is probably the most true part of your post, just take a look at the "Things that get on your proverbial tits" topic to see just how easy we have it that we spent 4+ pages bitching about "first world problems". No matter how much we bitch, life in the UK (and Europe and the USA to a large extent I'd hazard) IS still better than most other places. The sexism that you and mue are trying to convince us is so big and rampant here simply doesn't happen, unless you're being very picky and looking in very specific places just to see it. So it's an attitude that's not needed and in some cases does more harm than good because we get sick of hearing about it so much when there isn't really that good a reason to keep projecting it. Society here has progressed enough that the feminism dead horse doesn't need flogging quite so often. Trying to make it sound worse than it actually is ("You're in the dark ages!) and deliberately taking my use of the term "objectify" way too literally has the same effect, all that happens is you piss people off which helps precisely nobody, apart from those who want to piss people off.

OK so I shouldn't have said "objectification", fact still remains that we males have always been easily pleased with our eyes, it makes most of us happy when we see a woman we find hot, soooo, we do tend to be fine with pics of women without many clothes on. Nothing oppressive about it, it's why it's mostly males that watch porn and is one of the most tried and tested ways of advertising and clickbaiting, it's something that works and that women also take advantage of on a regular basis themselves. "We can see the result of how women are treated and it isn't pretty"? Dunno about you but, literally, all of the women I know aren't oppressed in any way and have exactly the same opportunities and rights that I do. Some of them even earn more than I do! :shock: :roll:

Where are you people looking to see all this evil sexism in the western world then?

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Re: Feminism

Postby Yukupo » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:58 pm

You don't see it because you're a man.

You haven't grown up with it. It's not that I'm making it a bigger deal than it actually is, its that you're belittling other people's struggles because you can't see the problems. You're not taking the time to listen to them. You're sick of hearing about? I couldn't care less if you're sick of it. Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.

And it doesn't matter what term you're using. You could say it in the most eloquent way possible. What you're actually doing is objectifying. I'm not even anti-porn. In fact, I really haven't mentioned porn. It's the attitude against women that I'm talking about.

Where do I see all this evil sexism? By listening to women. Listening to their experiences and what they have to go through on a daily basis. It's not about my experiences, its about theirs. That's the thing about discrimination. If you're not the one being discriminated against its hard to see it.

Women are looked down on for having 'too much' sex. They're looked down on for not wanting to have sex. Told they are 'asking for it' by dressing a certain way. Catcalled incessantly as they walk down the street. Talked down to, explained to, and underestimated by men whereas a man in the same situation wouldn't be.

Men don't have to put up with that shit. Don't tell me sexism doesn't exist.

It's not my intention to piss you or anyone else off. I'm just trying to spread a message that I believe is important.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Kenny » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:22 pm

Talked down to, explained to, and underestimated by men whereas a man in the same situation wouldn't be.


I had no idea men can't be talked down to, explained to, or underestimated by other men.

Please show me this magical wonderland where this exists.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Yukupo » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:25 pm

I'm sorry if you misinterpreted. I didn't mean men can't be talked down to or belittled. I'm talking about the frequency and the way in which it happens. Perhaps I'm not best at explaining this given that I'm not a women and thus don't have those experiences, but given the way in which you replied you likely don't want to listen anyway.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Kenny » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:29 pm

You mean I can't be snarky and serious at the same time?
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Re: Feminism

Postby Shenmuedabest » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:37 pm

Yukupo wrote: @Shenmuedabest
What's your point? People are jerks to each other? I don't see what that has to do with feminism. Was critique on the shirt warranted? Sure. Insults? Nah.


My point is there were a number of feminists that latched onto that whole situation and gave him a fucking hard time, saying they were oppressed by his choice of shirt but hang on... weren't they oppressing him? They totally detracted from his accomplishments. That's not fair and was entirely hypocritical. "We want to be treated the same as men but we won't treat men how they deserve to be treated".
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Re: Feminism

Postby Yukupo » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:55 pm

No Kenny, I just feel that this environment is a bit hostile toward these ideas and many would rather nitpick things rather than try to listen to and engage in the conversation. The level of sarcasm you were displaying really just came off, to me, as "Haha, feminists, am I right guys?" That ultimately felt like there was an air of disrespect. Sorry if that wasn't your intention.

Shenmuedabest wrote:My point is there were a number of feminists that latched onto that whole situation and gave him a fucking hard time, saying they were oppressed by his choice of shirt but hang on... weren't they oppressing him? They totally detracted from his accomplishments. That's not fair and was entirely hypocritical. "We want to be treated the same as men but we won't treat men how they deserve to be treated".

I wouldn't say the guy deserved to be treated that way and I'd probably find myself not agreeing with the individuals who let their anger become malicious. But it is like I said earlier that these topics about feminism tend to go to bashing the extreme individuals within the movement. Those individuals shouldn't reflect the entire movement or the concepts that exist within it. Feminism, like any other movement has a lot of different people who might believe a lot of different things. I believe there's a lot of good to be found in it.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Riku Rose » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:35 pm

^Qwerty is talking about the extreme examples in which some feminists react. Then again you're talking about the extreme way in which they're treated. Some women do get treated like shit, some black people still encounter racism and gay people have only just got a human right in being able to marry but to make out like it's a common thing that every female secretary get's cartoonishly slapped on the arse by her boss is ridiculous.

Seriously when is the last time anyone every see a woman get cat called? I'm sure it happens but I've never seen it in my life yet most feminists would have you believe that walking to the car holds the possibility of going deaf from how much is yelled at you.


Yukupo wrote: @Riku's 'joke' post
Yukupo wrote:The 'everyone is to sensitive these days' argument is bullshit. You don't want to admit that these things are ingrained in society and that maybe, hey, you're a little bit sexist/racist/homophobic/etc too. Its easy for a bunch of white men to sit around and go "Yeah I agree that's not offensive, these people are too sensitive!"

Your experiences != everyone else's.


Either you can joke about everything or you joke about nothing. For every joke someone tells there will be someone in the world who get's offended by it.

And telling a stupid joke about a group of people doesn't mean you have some deep hate for them. Everyone has that mate in your group who's probably only a stone overweight and you all take the piss out of him for being fat, does that mean everyone hates fat people? I went to Disneyworld with a mate who's a little short and leading up to it we kept saying he wouldn't get on any of the rides because of the height requirement, does that mean we want all dwarfs killed?

I have a twitter account with about 5000 followers and once made a joke about black people which was so stupid and dumb I can't even remember it. I got tons of people saying I was disgusting and offensive, the thing was every single person that said that was white. Every single person who gave it a star or Rt'd it was black.

We have this PC police now who thinks it's their duty too tell everyone what's ok and whats not ok and it's a very dangerous slippery slope. Before you know it Friends re runs won't be on TV anymore because there is the episode where the guys make fun of the girls why they play Football because all the writers must have been sexist. Then we won't have Cheers on anymore since there is the episode when everyone wants Sam to kick out the gay guy because the guy who wrote that must be homophobic.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Yukupo » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:58 pm

I think there's a lot of nuance you are missing here. Racism and sexism is more than just overtly being attacked. It's part of the systems in which we live. I admit its hard to communicate. Most women probably aren't slapped on the ass by their boss anymore. We are getting better as a society but we're not perfect.

A lot of it is subdued and and masked. People want to compare it to the extremes to make it seem like its not an issue. About the catcalling, the frequency might depend a bit on where you live as it seems to happen in more pedestrian heavy areas like cities, but I can tell you I've seen my girlfriend get catcalled as well as heard her experiences on it. There's also a bit of psychology to it that when men see women who are walking with a man they will be less likely to try to talk to her. So men don't witness a lot of it.

On the issue of comedy, this is definitely very nuanced. I won't go in to it too much since I'm not fully sure where I stand on it. I do enjoy many shows that I acknowledge have problematic bits to them such as the two you mentioned in your post. Its also harder to speak about joking that goes on between friends as you typically have an understanding with each other.

But I will say that that what people say and do has an impact on others. You know if someone grew up their whole life having certain aspects of themselves made fun of to the point where degrades their self esteem, even hearing those things mentioned as a joke can produce those feelings again.

Since largely its white male writers who write comedy and since they haven't had those experiences, they are less likely to think about those people's feelings. Its a common defense to just argue that people are too sensitive. But you're the ones in power writing the jokes. I'm sure you might feel a bit differently if the situation were reversed. And sure, people in these groups might find some of the jokes funny too. It's not going to affect everyone the same way. Maybe if we lived in a world with more diverse content creators this wouldn't be an issue.

Again I'm not going to speak too strongly on that issue since its still an issue I'm thinking about myself.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Raithos » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:17 pm

mue 26 wrote:
All I'm doing is pointing that it's not a very good comparison since what war veterans face is objectively worse than what she's gone through.


This is where your whole argument falls apart. There is no way to objectively quantify suffering. The suffering of someone being cyber bullied on twitter may indeed be as bad, or even worse, than the suffering of a war veteran. Proof of this is that people have killed themselves over stuff like "mean things" that were said on twitter.


Comparing the two is beyond absurd Mue. I know %100 you have never served your country or you would never spout trash like that. You do not know what its like spending 24 hours a day with people, becoming part of someone's life, depending on each other for survival, just to watch them get shot/stabbed/blown up in front of your face. People you have spent weeks, months, years with... gone in an instant. Waking up in the middle of the night to your camp being rained upon by mortar shells. Handing out food to civilians, just to be fired upon after they take it from you.

You think being called names on twitter compares to that? You make me sick.

edit: given that this forum is on the Shenmue.link page, I removed the F bomb I used.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Sonikku » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:49 am

Am I a feminist? Hell, I don't even know. Everyone seems to have their own idea on how it's defined. I would not claim to be a feminist, I don't see the need. I would say I'm more of an equalist. (is that even a thing?) Which is to say if women aren't being paid the same compensation for the same labor, I think that they should be. But then again, if a woman commits a crime and becomes a sex offender, they too should get the same hard labor a man would for the same crime and would not get off with probation by simple virtue of being female. Because that too, is only fair. Equality must be applied both ways, not only when it is favorable. How can we ever truly be equal so long as we continue to hold each other to different standards?

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Re: Feminism

Postby Yukupo » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:56 am

Then you are a feminist. Nothing you said is against what feminism is about. Its about the equality of women. Since women have been traditionally treated less than men there's a historical reason why its called feminism.

Anyone who believes its about female supremacy or special treatment above men doesn't know what Feminism is.
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