Shenmue in CryEngine

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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby Dorian » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:30 pm

again this doesn't make sense because the possibilities are unlimited in game design, especially by today standards, an engine does what you tell it to do, if you tell it to use lighting in a certain manner then it will do it in a certain manner, same for rendering and so on, you are only limited by hardware which can do anything the dreamcast can and much more

That's theory. In practice, nobody has the time and funds to tweak UN3 to make it a totally different engine. It would be absurd since that engine was made to streamline game designing and make things work and look similarly in the first place. The whole industry is trying to simplify everything by using standardization that hurts the art and 'spiritual' qualities of games. It's obvious that modern hardware can do anything that the DC did, but the problem is the aforementioned standardization. Everybody uses the same tools, the same techniques, the same tricks, the same effects because everybody wants to speed things up and make them cheaper. Creating a proprietary engine for Shenmue would be pretty much the same as the re-tweaking you speak of. It all boils down to talent, time and money. Reviving Shenmue is a pipe dream, but if it happens, then Shenmue 3 won't get all the talent, time and money that Shenmue 1-2 got. That's why it would most probably be made on a generic engine and look like shit. I'd much rather see it being made on the original engine, especially that even if Shenmue 3 got a new kickass engine, then it would take too much time to harness it on a level that is expected from a proper Shenmue game.

Peter wrote:quotes from philosophers

What quotes from philosophers? I don't remember quoting any philosophers of late.

I don't need to be agreed with to discuss topics I'm interested in. I'm being myself and if somebody sees me as a prick/idiot/nounce/mental rapist/child eater/whatever, then it's their right to do so. Just like I see south as a totally different person than he sees himself. But it's not me who starts these pathetic ad hominem arguments and that's what I would expect from others, even if it's hopeless in many cases.
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby south carmain » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:40 pm

Dorian wrote:
again this doesn't make sense because the possibilities are unlimited in game design, especially by today standards, an engine does what you tell it to do, if you tell it to use lighting in a certain manner then it will do it in a certain manner, same for rendering and so on, you are only limited by hardware which can do anything the dreamcast can and much more

That's theory. In practice, nobody has the time and funds to tweak UN3 to make it a totally different engine. It would be absurd since that engine was made to streamline game designing and make things work and look similar in the first place. The whole industry is trying to simplify everything by using standardization that hurts the art and 'spiritual' qualities of games. It's obvious that modern hardware can do anything that the DC did, but the problem is the aforementioned standardization. Everybody uses the same tools, the same techniques, the same tricks, the same effects because everybody wants to speed things up and make them cheaper. Creating a proprietary engine for Shenmue would be pretty much the same as the re-tweaking you speak of. It all boils down to talent, time and money. Reviving Shenmue is a pipe dream, but if it happens, then Shenmue 3 won't get all talent, time and money that Shenmue 1-2 got. That's why it would most probably made on a generic engine and look like shit. I'd much rather see it being made on the original engine, especially that even if Shenmue 3 got a new kickass engine, then it would take too much time to harness it on a level that is expected from a proper Shenmue game.

the thing is that this isn't the COD franchise we're talking about, Yu suzuki already knows what he wants for shenmue 3, and when you know exactly what you want you can save time and money by getting straight to the point, UDK is a bad example because it wasn't built for that kind of customisation and is focussed on fps type games, but you could modify it to create a shenmue game as you wish but at this point it would be extremely long and annoying to code to get such results, now if he borrowed the yakuza 5 engine he could make a few tweaks to that and achieve great results I'm sure
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby Peter » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:45 pm

south carmain wrote:
Dorian wrote:
again this doesn't make sense because the possibilities are unlimited in game design, especially by today standards, an engine does what you tell it to do, if you tell it to use lighting in a certain manner then it will do it in a certain manner, same for rendering and so on, you are only limited by hardware which can do anything the dreamcast can and much more

That's theory. In practice, nobody has the time and funds to tweak UN3 to make it a totally different engine. It would be absurd since that engine was made to streamline game designing and make things work and look similar in the first place. The whole industry is trying to simplify everything by using standardization that hurts the art and 'spiritual' qualities of games. It's obvious that modern hardware can do anything that the DC did, but the problem is the aforementioned standardization. Everybody uses the same tools, the same techniques, the same tricks, the same effects because everybody wants to speed things up and make them cheaper. Creating a proprietary engine for Shenmue would be pretty much the same as the re-tweaking you speak of. It all boils down to talent, time and money. Reviving Shenmue is a pipe dream, but if it happens, then Shenmue 3 won't get all talent, time and money that Shenmue 1-2 got. That's why it would most probably made on a generic engine and look like shit. I'd much rather see it being made on the original engine, especially that even if Shenmue 3 got a new kickass engine, then it would take too much time to harness it on a level that is expected from a proper Shenmue game.

the thing is that this isn't the COD franchise we're talking about, Yu suzuki already knows what he wants for shenmue 3, and when you know exactly what you want you can save time and money by getting straight to the point, UDK is a bad example because it wasn't built for that kind of customisation and is focussed on fps type games, but you could modify it to create a shenmue game as you wish but at this point it would be extremely long and annoying to code to get such results, now if he borrowed the yakuza 5 engine he could make a few tweaks to that and achieve great results I'm sure


Honestly though, if Shenmue 3 was done on a Yakuza engine, or Sleeping Dogs engine..... heck any modern day gaming engine then i would have reservations that i would like it. I can only describe it as a "warmth" that i get from the look of the Dreamcast games, and for me they are as big a part of Shenmue as any other elements from it. I am not technically minded as you guys, so i dont know if its art, or engineering but i would want Shenmue III to look and feel the same as its 2 predecessors. Even 20-30 years from now.
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby Dorian » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:46 pm

south carmain wrote: the thing is that this isn't the COD franchise we're talking about, Yu suzuki already knows what he wants for shenmue 3, and when you know exactly what you want you can save time and money by getting straight to the point, UDK is a bad example because it wasn't built for that kind of customisation and is focussed on fps type games, but you could modify it to create a shenmue game as you wish but at this point it would be extremely long and annoying to code to get such results, now if he borrowed the yakuza 5 engine he could make a few tweaks to that and achieve great results I'm sure

Realistically speaking, Yu Suzuki has nothing that can make Shenmue 3 a reality at the moment. His new-founded company makes shovelware. He would have to assemble a new team and instruct them on everything all over again. If they also had to work under a new, complex engine for HD consoles, then the whole process would take ages given the scale of the final Shenmue game, especially with a genius like Yu Suzuki at the helm. The Last Guardian case is the best example of the problem at hand, and TLG isn't even 1/10 of the Shenmue scope. What you speak of is wishful theorizing that will never be turned into practice.
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby south carmain » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:50 pm

Dorian wrote:
south carmain wrote: the thing is that this isn't the COD franchise we're talking about, Yu suzuki already knows what he wants for shenmue 3, and when you know exactly what you want you can save time and money by getting straight to the point, UDK is a bad example because it wasn't built for that kind of customisation and is focussed on fps type games, but you could modify it to create a shenmue game as you wish but at this point it would be extremely long and annoying to code to get such results, now if he borrowed the yakuza 5 engine he could make a few tweaks to that and achieve great results I'm sure

Realistically speaking, Yu Suzuki has nothing that can make Shenmue 3 a reality. His new-founded company makes shovelware. He would have to assemble a new team and instruct them on everything all over again. If they also had to work on a new, complex engine for HD consoles, the whole process would take ages given the scale of the final Shenmue 3 game, especially with a genius like Yu Suzuki at the helm. The Last Guardian case is the best example of the problem at hand, and TLG isn't even 1/10 of the Shenmue's scope. What you speak of is wishful theorizing that will never be turned into practice.

yes and? I didn't say it would happen I said it could work, the current yakuza engine is pretty flexible so i'm sure the new one will be even more, in theory he could purchase unity pro, get the ps3 and 360 licenses, assemble a team of 3rd worlders and make the game to above dreamcast standards for barely anything
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby south carmain » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:52 pm

Peter wrote:
south carmain wrote:
Dorian wrote:
again this doesn't make sense because the possibilities are unlimited in game design, especially by today standards, an engine does what you tell it to do, if you tell it to use lighting in a certain manner then it will do it in a certain manner, same for rendering and so on, you are only limited by hardware which can do anything the dreamcast can and much more

That's theory. In practice, nobody has the time and funds to tweak UN3 to make it a totally different engine. It would be absurd since that engine was made to streamline game designing and make things work and look similar in the first place. The whole industry is trying to simplify everything by using standardization that hurts the art and 'spiritual' qualities of games. It's obvious that modern hardware can do anything that the DC did, but the problem is the aforementioned standardization. Everybody uses the same tools, the same techniques, the same tricks, the same effects because everybody wants to speed things up and make them cheaper. Creating a proprietary engine for Shenmue would be pretty much the same as the re-tweaking you speak of. It all boils down to talent, time and money. Reviving Shenmue is a pipe dream, but if it happens, then Shenmue 3 won't get all talent, time and money that Shenmue 1-2 got. That's why it would most probably made on a generic engine and look like shit. I'd much rather see it being made on the original engine, especially that even if Shenmue 3 got a new kickass engine, then it would take too much time to harness it on a level that is expected from a proper Shenmue game.

the thing is that this isn't the COD franchise we're talking about, Yu suzuki already knows what he wants for shenmue 3, and when you know exactly what you want you can save time and money by getting straight to the point, UDK is a bad example because it wasn't built for that kind of customisation and is focussed on fps type games, but you could modify it to create a shenmue game as you wish but at this point it would be extremely long and annoying to code to get such results, now if he borrowed the yakuza 5 engine he could make a few tweaks to that and achieve great results I'm sure


Honestly though, if Shenmue 3 was done on a Yakuza engine, or Sleeping Dogs engine..... heck any modern day gaming engine then i would have reservations that i would like it. I can only describe it as a "warmth" that i get from the look of the Dreamcast games, and for me they are as big a part of Shenmue as any other elements from it. I am not technically minded as you guys, so i dont know if its art, or engineering but i would want Shenmue III to look and feel the same as its 2 predecessors. Even 20-30 years from now.

I guess that would mostly depend on the artistic direction and skills of the teams involved, even if you change the lighting and shaders it still mostly looks like how you made the models and art beforehand
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby Dorian » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:56 pm

south carmain wrote:in theory he could purchase unity pro, get the ps3 and 360 licenses, assemble a team of 3rd worlders and make the game to above dreamcast standards for barely anything

In theory, Capcom's new internal polices are a great idea.

My initial idea was that you are locked in box of theories you like to juggle with, but there's more to real life than that.

In theory, Shenmue is an over decade old open world games progenitor with awful writing, shitty controls and idiotic QTEs. In reality, it's arguably the best game ever made than transcends all aspects of your theorizing.

Shenmue would be shit on the Yakuza engine. The battles wouldn't work the way they should. That's one of the reasons why a new Shenmue game is hard to do. They would have to incorporate VF5-level fighting into the game. An engine in an engine.
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby south carmain » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:00 pm

Dorian wrote:
south carmain wrote:in theory he could purchase unity pro, get the ps3 and 360 licenses, assemble a team of 3rd worlders and make the game to above dreamcast standards for barely anything

In theory, Capcom's new internal polices are a great idea.

My initial idea was that you are locked in box of theories you like to juggle with, but there's more to real life than that.

In theory, Shenmue is an over decade old open world games progenitor with awful writing, shitty controls and idiotic QTEs. In reality, it's arguably the best game ever made than transcends all aspects of your theorizing.

Shenmue would be shit on the Yakuza engine. The battles wouldn't work the way they should. That's one of the reasons why a new Shenmue game is hard to do. They would have to incorporate VF5-level fighting into the game. An engine in an engine.

nah I was actually discussing as it seemed you had calmed down and when you shifted to a completely different subject I thought you had dropped the argument and actually wanted to talk about things, of course it was stupid of me to think so

in theory changing the fighting style wouldn't be too hard as it's just animations+receptors, as I said it would need a few tweaks, but being on the yakuza engine does not mean it has to play like yakuza, it just means they used the core of the engine and modified the rest to suit their needs
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby Peter » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:01 pm

Dorian wrote:


In theory, Shenmue is an over decade old open world games progenitor with awful writing, shitty controls and idiotic QTEs. In reality, it's arguably the best game ever made than transcends all aspects of your theorizing.


But for me, thats what makes Shenmue so great :lol:

If it was released today with better writing, more user friendly controls and non QTE elements, it would just be another game in the sandbox genre that will have its 5 minutes in the spotlight. Shenmue has something at lot of todays games will never have; a legacy. People remember it for both good and bad reasons, but its remembered. Thats the important thing, and its remembered for those reasons and more. I wouldnt change a thing about them, or any future Shenmue installment. Id have all the voice actors back, the same graphics engine..... everything.
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby MiTT3NZ » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:03 pm

Dorian wrote:@MiTT3NZ: Ignorant? Read your own posts once in a while. You are the last person here to talk about ignorance. My views can seem like total shit to you and it won't bother me since the way you tried to refute my claims is entirely biased because you totally ignore the fact that south acts like a prima ballerina assoluta of every possible aspect of video game designing.


How is my knowledge on video game design based on the personality of another person?
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby south carmain » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:05 pm

MiTT3NZ wrote:
Dorian wrote:@MiTT3NZ: Ignorant? Read your own posts once in a while. You are the last person here to talk about ignorance. My views can seem like total shit to you and it won't bother me since the way you tried to refute my claims is entirely biased because you totally ignore the fact that south acts like a prima ballerina assoluta of every possible aspect of video game designing.


How is my knowledge on video game design based on the personality of another person?

he lives in his own world, I don't think you will ever be able to get a direct answer out of him
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby Dorian » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:08 pm

in theory changing the fighting style wouldn't be too hard as it's just animations+receptors, as I said it would need a few tweaks, but being on the yakuza engine does not mean it has to play like yakuza, it just means they used the core of the engine and modified the rest to suit their needs

OK, this really proved that you have no factual idea of what you are talking about. You only have your theories. The Yakuza engine can not factually be tweaked to feature VF5-level fighting. It would have to be a new engine, but you just can't get it because you can only operate with theories than have nothing to do with how things look and work in reality. You remind me of TN's boss who thinks that UN3 locked at 30 FPS in DmC will give the same feeling as the original DMC because they've "tweaked things". You ignore idiosyncrasies and details in order to force your idea through generalization and quasi-logical arguments.
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby MiTT3NZ » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:12 pm

I do sometimes feel like his perception of reality is bein totally obscured by something. I dunno if it's where he lives, or if the internet's to blame, or if he's one of those book smart people that applies the logic of one subject to everything else in life, but he's definitely not a full shilling.

And @Dorian: Do you not realise that you try to justify your own opinions soley by insulting others' opinions? I know that I insult other people's opinions, but I at least back up my own.
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby south carmain » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:15 pm

Dorian wrote:
in theory changing the fighting style wouldn't be too hard as it's just animations+receptors, as I said it would need a few tweaks, but being on the yakuza engine does not mean it has to play like yakuza, it just means they used the core of the engine and modified the rest to suit their needs

OK, this really proved that you have no factual idea of what you talking about. You only have your theories. The Yakuza engine can not factually be tweaked to feature VF5-level fighting. It would have to be a new engine, but you just can't get it because you can only operate with theories than have nothing to do with how things look and work in reality. You remind me of TN's boss who thinks that UN3 locked at 30 FPS in DmC will give the same feeling as the original DMC because they've "tweaked things". You ignore idiosyncrasies and details in order to force your idea through generalization and quasi-logical arguments.

that's a long post to say I'm wrong without properly explaining why, if you tweak yakuzas engine enough you could get virtua fighter results, it all comes down to coding+animations, anything is possible as long as you have access to the source code and have the skills to make it as you wish
MiTT3NZ wrote:I do sometimes feel like his perception of reality is bein totally obscured by something. I dunno if it's where he lives, or if the internet's to blame, or if he's one of those book smart people that applies the logic of one subject to everything else in life, but he's definitely not a full shilling.

And @Dorian: Do you not realise that you try to justify your own opinions soley by insulting others' opinions? I know that I insult other people's opinions, but I at least back up my own.

yeah one of those people who doesn't understand real knowledge comes from practice and interaction I would guess
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Re: Shenmue in CryEngine

Postby Dorian » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:16 pm

MiTT3NZ wrote:How is my knowledge on video game design based on the personality of another person?

Your (potential) knowledge becomes secondary when the grounding of your actions is found in unjust favouring of somebody. You wrote about south as if he was politely explaining a few details from his line of work, which wasn't the case. He ostentatiously started to talk about every aspect of creating Shenmue, as if he was Yu Suzuki in flesh. That's his attitude everywhere and he always employs informal fallacies and an irrelevances to bring down people who point it out to him.
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