Random Shenmue Thoughts

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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby Mr357 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:10 pm

"Green Field" in Guilin is a remix of "Meditation" from Shenmue I.

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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:27 pm

Mr357 wrote: "Green Field" in Guilin is a remix of "Meditation" from Shenmue I.

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I always felt this was on purpose, as by the time you reach Guilin the player is fully aware Ryo is tracing Iwao's footsteps through China.
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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby ShenGCH » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:33 am

Giorgio wrote: Shenmue is not just entertaining (that is, as a new kind of interactive digital/virtual entertainment),
it's also soul-fulfilling (sapienti sat).

And some thoughts as an answer to closed-minded gaming-journalists and the vast majority of a certain type of gamers:
Some journalists criticize Shenmue by saying that it doesn't have a lot to
offer in gaming terms, and that they could perform the same activities in real
life. But that's exactly the point. To live (almost) a second life, different to
your own, while being immersed in a lifelike/believable world. To experience
it viscerally, with a gut feeling that you are organically one with what is being
shown on the screen. Yu Suzuki and AM2 created it based on standards of
the real world, and not as a video game. Players who prefer and are used to
'proven', traditional ways of gaming entertainment, of course, will disdain it.
Most of them come with a closed mind on what a video game should and
could be. Like there is a certain recipe that needs to be followed in order to
provide an accepted interactive entertaining experience. Their standards are
like a round hole and Shenmue is like a square peg. The easiest solution: to
mock it and its appreciators (as fanboys, lunatics, etc). The Shenmue series
is a new kind of entertainment. Almost two decades later, the vast majority
of players can't get why it is beloved, or, they do, but they can't stomach this
fact. They can't get that a game... is not like a game, and that, despite that,
people are still enchanted/entranced by it. At the end of the day, what makes
it seem empty for a lot of gamers is what makes it a unique, rich, natural,
and personally soul-fulfilling experience for others (even non-gamers).


Image

I do worry about how Shenmue III will be received critically. Gaming journalism in this day and age is a complete and utter shit-show; not to mention the fact that some journalists are probably itching to give Shenmue III a bashing simply because of what it is. If the game turns out to be shit, it deserves fair criticism to the fullest extent, but that's the kicker: just because a critic might curse the game 'til they're blue in the face, does that mean it's an objectively bad game or do they simply not 'get' it? Shenmue is up there with the likes of Deadly Premonition as a game that people either love or hate - there's hardly any middle ground whatsoever - not because either are bad games, but because they transcend the very notion of objectivity.

Ride to Hell: Retribution is objectively bad, whereas Super Meat Boy, for example, is objectively good. Games like Shenmue and Deadly Premonition, however, simply can't be categorised in this way because they are entirely subjective - though not without obvious flaws - and handing the reigns over to a critic when something is 100% subjective is a very dangerous thing to do because it encourages bias and unnecessary personal opinion to float to the surface; instead of "This is [...]," it becomes "I think [...]."

Regardless, as long as we, the fans, enjoy it, and it makes a profit, thus allowing the series to continue on, critics can say whatever the fuck they want. It doesn't matter either way :)
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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby Ziming » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:25 am

TGS 2016 - Old Shenmue Promo shown at SEGA Booth (Recorded by Peter)

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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby Giorgio » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:26 am

ShenGCH wrote:
Giorgio wrote: Shenmue is not just entertaining (that is, as a new kind of interactive digital/virtual entertainment),
it's also soul-fulfilling (sapienti sat).

And some thoughts as an answer to closed-minded gaming-journalists and the vast majority of a certain type of gamers:
Some journalists criticize Shenmue by saying that it doesn't have a lot to
offer in gaming terms, and that they could perform the same activities in real
life. But that's exactly the point. To live (almost) a second life, different to
your own, while being immersed in a lifelike/believable world. To experience
it viscerally, with a gut feeling that you are organically one with what is being
shown on the screen. Yu Suzuki and AM2 created it based on standards of
the real world, and not as a video game. Players who prefer and are used to
'proven', traditional ways of gaming entertainment, of course, will disdain it.
Most of them come with a closed mind on what a video game should and
could be. Like there is a certain recipe that needs to be followed in order to
provide an accepted interactive entertaining experience. Their standards are
like a round hole and Shenmue is like a square peg. The easiest solution: to
mock it and its appreciators (as fanboys, lunatics, etc). The Shenmue series
is a new kind of entertainment. Almost two decades later, the vast majority
of players can't get why it is beloved, or, they do, but they can't stomach this
fact. They can't get that a game... is not like a game, and that, despite that,
people are still enchanted/entranced by it. At the end of the day, what makes
it seem empty for a lot of gamers is what makes it a unique, rich, natural,
and personally soul-fulfilling experience for others (even non-gamers).


Image

I do worry about how Shenmue III will be received critically. [...]
Gaming journalism in this day and age is a complete and utter shit-show; not to mention the fact that some journalists are probably itching to give Shenmue III a bashing simply because of what it is. If the game turns out to be shit, it deserves fair criticism to the fullest extent, but that's the kicker: just because a critic might curse the game 'til they're blue in the face, does that mean it's an objectively bad game or do they simply not 'get' it? Shenmue is up there with the likes of Deadly Premonition as a game that people either love or hate - there's hardly any middle ground whatsoever - not because either are bad games, but because they transcend the very notion of objectivity.

Ride to Hell: Retribution is objectively bad, whereas Super Meat Boy, for example, is objectively good. Games like Shenmue and Deadly Premonition, however, simply can't be categorised in this way because they are entirely subjective - though not without obvious flaws - and handing the reigns over to a critic when something is 100% subjective is a very dangerous thing to do because it encourages bias and unnecessary personal opinion to float to the surface; instead of "This is [...]," it becomes "I think [...]."

Regardless, as long as we, the fans, enjoy it, and it makes a profit, thus allowing the series to continue on, critics can say whatever the fuck they want. It doesn't matter either way :)


There is confusion, everywhere where gaming is concerned, between objectivity and subjectivity. A gaming journalist's/critic's objective job is to objectively present to whom a game is addressed and then to objectively analyze if/why it achieves its ambition. For example, Shenmue as a new kind of entertainment, is addressed to players who enjoy an immersive, natural/lifelike/believable/living/breathing/based-on-real-standards, pro-social and story-dependent world, and it achieves its ambition for such and such a reason.

However, their objective job is not to share their opinion, and, thus, their subjective view and personal aesthetic judgement, on why they loved/liked or hated/disliked a game. Of course, some journalists/critics publicize their articles under the label "opinion" (but, sometimes, some of them abuse this, to present, at the end, an ode or a condemnation, to influence the public opinion through a website which gets a lot of traffic, or as a clickbait to get a lot of traffic).

Personally, I believe, Shenmue III will have the same fate as its predecessors. The vast majority of critics will try to find in Shenmue III something that isn't there and was never meant to be in there. They will criticize it based on the traditional standards (as I mentioned in my previous post), and not based on the new/different standards of its unique/individual genre. [And the same applies to other games, too, which have a bizarre, capricious and/or idiosyncratic style (compared to the ones which follow the orthodox styles).]

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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby ShenGCH » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:10 pm

Giorgio wrote:
ShenGCH wrote:
Giorgio wrote: Shenmue is not just entertaining (that is, as a new kind of interactive digital/virtual entertainment),
it's also soul-fulfilling (sapienti sat).

And some thoughts as an answer to closed-minded gaming-journalists and the vast majority of a certain type of gamers:
Some journalists criticize Shenmue by saying that it doesn't have a lot to
offer in gaming terms, and that they could perform the same activities in real
life. But that's exactly the point. To live (almost) a second life, different to
your own, while being immersed in a lifelike/believable world. To experience
it viscerally, with a gut feeling that you are organically one with what is being
shown on the screen. Yu Suzuki and AM2 created it based on standards of
the real world, and not as a video game. Players who prefer and are used to
'proven', traditional ways of gaming entertainment, of course, will disdain it.
Most of them come with a closed mind on what a video game should and
could be. Like there is a certain recipe that needs to be followed in order to
provide an accepted interactive entertaining experience. Their standards are
like a round hole and Shenmue is like a square peg. The easiest solution: to
mock it and its appreciators (as fanboys, lunatics, etc). The Shenmue series
is a new kind of entertainment. Almost two decades later, the vast majority
of players can't get why it is beloved, or, they do, but they can't stomach this
fact. They can't get that a game... is not like a game, and that, despite that,
people are still enchanted/entranced by it. At the end of the day, what makes
it seem empty for a lot of gamers is what makes it a unique, rich, natural,
and personally soul-fulfilling experience for others (even non-gamers).


Image

I do worry about how Shenmue III will be received critically. [...]
Gaming journalism in this day and age is a complete and utter shit-show; not to mention the fact that some journalists are probably itching to give Shenmue III a bashing simply because of what it is. If the game turns out to be shit, it deserves fair criticism to the fullest extent, but that's the kicker: just because a critic might curse the game 'til they're blue in the face, does that mean it's an objectively bad game or do they simply not 'get' it? Shenmue is up there with the likes of Deadly Premonition as a game that people either love or hate - there's hardly any middle ground whatsoever - not because either are bad games, but because they transcend the very notion of objectivity.

Ride to Hell: Retribution is objectively bad, whereas Super Meat Boy, for example, is objectively good. Games like Shenmue and Deadly Premonition, however, simply can't be categorised in this way because they are entirely subjective - though not without obvious flaws - and handing the reigns over to a critic when something is 100% subjective is a very dangerous thing to do because it encourages bias and unnecessary personal opinion to float to the surface; instead of "This is [...]," it becomes "I think [...]."

Regardless, as long as we, the fans, enjoy it, and it makes a profit, thus allowing the series to continue on, critics can say whatever the fuck they want. It doesn't matter either way :)

There is confusion, everywhere where gaming is concerned, between objectivity and subjectivity. A gaming journalist's/critic's objective job is to objectively present to whom a game is addressed and then to objectively analyze if/why it achieves its ambition. For example, Shenmue as a new kind of entertainment, is addressed to players who enjoy an immersive, natural/lifelike/believable/living/breathing/based-on-real-standards, pro-social and story-dependent world, and it achieves its ambition for such and such a reason.

However, their objective job is not to share their opinion, and, thus, their subjective view and personal aesthetic judgement, on why they loved/liked or hated/disliked a game. Of course, some journalists/critics publicize their articles under the label "opinion" (but, sometimes, some of them abuse this, to present, at the end, an ode or a condemnation, to influence the public opinion through a website which gets a lot of traffic, or as a clickbait to get a lot of traffic).

Personally, I believe, Shenmue III will have the same fate as its predecessors. The vast majority of critics will try to find in Shenmue III something that isn't there and was never meant to be in there. They will criticize it based on the traditional standards (as I mentioned in my previous post), and not based on the new/different standards of its unique/individual genre. [And the same applies to other games, too, which have a bizarre, capricious and/or idiosyncratic style (compared to the ones which follow the orthodox styles).]

Very well said, man. Even the biggest criticism the first Shenmue most often receives, the pacing, is not an objective criticism, because it fits with the aspect of being grounded to reality; some players will hate having to wait around, whereas others (myself included) love the fact they're able to kill time and explore the world, train moves, play arcade games, converse with the locals, or whatever else until the next event. Therefore, that's a subjective criticism that does not represent the overall quality of the game, and using personal opinion to dictate to others what they didn't like about something in the game, as opposed to being objective about it, is extremely poor practice. But hey, that's games journalism for you.

What are the truly objective criticisms of the game? The English voice acting? Yeah, it's poor (many of us, as fans, love it because it's charming and humorous for all the wrong reasons, but it's undeniably poor voice acting). Other than that, Shenmue is pretty much flawless besides personal opinion which will differ from person to person. Shenmue II is a vast improvement over the first, and, much like the first, many of the criticisms are subjective: the Ghost Hall planks, Freeze QTEs, first-person Free Battles, QTE crate transportation, etc. The objective criticism? The voice acting, again. (Some would argue the stupid elevator system is objectively terrible, but you have to consider the decaying, chaotic nature of Kowloon at the time, so perhaps that was what they were trying to represent?)

As you said, critics will look for every nook and cranny to rip apart, and if they can't find one, they'll create them, but because of exactly the the kind of game Shenmue is, and the genre within which it fits, they may as well be criticising a basketball game for not using footballs.

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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby south carmain » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:33 am

I would just like to thank those who attended the dinner with yu suzuki for not giving in to your primal urge to kidnap yu suzuki in a crime of passion, locking him in a basement and force feeding him heart shaped love cookies. It must have been something very difficult for you to fight off and I would just like to say that I appreciate the effort.
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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby Let's Get Sweaty » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:18 am

Hold your applause until we've confirmed whether anyone's actually seen Yu since the dinner.

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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby Mr357 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:46 pm

Senpai will never ignore me again...
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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby James Brown » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:06 pm

Fun little Shenmue related tidbit :) -

Last night on Sega Europe's Sega Central live stream, Dan Sheridan (community manager) received a question about Sega showing fans and viewers around their Headquarters :), and went on to say that he had been thinking of showing us each of Sega's themed rooms! He's currently live streaming from the Company of Heroes room but went on to say that they also have various themed rooms, one of them being a Shenmue room!

I'll try and get him to show us this room in the future :), but it wasn't something I expected him to say, I would never have thought they would dedicate a room to Shenmue like that :) - hopefully it's a new room they've themed to help inspire them whilst working on Shenmue HD haha :P

This is the part of the show where he mentions about the themed rooms -

https://youtu.be/CTg_HidyV5Y?t=2100 (should start from 35 minutes timestamp)
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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby Aimless Gamer » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:37 pm

James Brown wrote: Fun little Shenmue related tidbit :) -

Last night on Sega Europe's Sega Central live stream, Dan Sheridan (community manager) received a question about Sega showing fans and viewers around their Headquarters :), and went on to say that he had been thinking of showing us each of Sega's themed rooms! He's currently live streaming from the Company of Heroes room but went on to say that they also have various themed rooms, one of them being a Shenmue room!

I'll try and get him to show us this room in the future :), but it wasn't something I expected him to say, I would never have thought they would dedicate a room to Shenmue like that :) - hopefully it's a new room they've themed to help inspire them whilst working on Shenmue HD haha :P

This is the part of the show where he mentions about the themed rooms -

https://youtu.be/CTg_HidyV5Y?t=2100 (should start from 35 minutes timestamp)

Knowing Sega, its the bathroom.

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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby Yokosuka » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:54 pm

My bet is on the cave.

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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby Let's Get Sweaty » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:14 am

It's a room with two external walls missing, having remained unfinished for fifteen years.
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Re: Random Shenmue Thoughts

Postby Yokosuka » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:36 pm

Found a rare official Shenmue II trailer.

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The musics sound slightly different than the original ones. Could they be the uncompressed versions we'll heard in the hypothetical remaster?

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