A huge Shenmue theory - A lot of questions answered

[Switch]

I've created a theory that answers why Shenmue 1 had a bad ending. How Zhu knew to send a warning letter to Iwao. Why Lan Di only asked for the Dragon Mirror. Why in Shenmue 2 Zhu was hiding. Why Lan Di had Don Niu capture Zhu. And I debunk the "Last laugh" theory.

If you don't want to read all this I've created a video that discusses the whole theory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txghH441B5k

For those that like to read....

Years ago it was speculated that the Shenmue saga will end back where it all began, back in Japan. There have been many theories of how the Shenmue series will have a sinister plot twist at the end where Lan Di has the last laugh on Ryo. The theory goes something like this:

After Lan Di's death, Ryo makes his return home to Japan. Where he finds that the events of "the bad ending" from Shenmue 1 really did take place. Lan Di finds out about the second mirror. He goes back to the Huzuki Dojo, sees Ine-san and Fuku-san, demands the second mirror. When they fail to produce it Lan Di kills them both. Ryo would only find this out after his victorious return back to Japan. Thus giving Lan Di "the last laugh" over Ryo. This theory can not happen for a number of reasons. One of the reasons being that Lan Di doesn't know that the second mirror exists!

Lan Di does not know that the second mirror exists. The only one that knows anything about the mirror's is Zhu. Even Master Chen when he talked about the mirrors his confessed that all he knew about the mirror's came from Zhu.

I believe that Lan Di, much like Master Chen, did not know about the mirror's. To get information on them Lan Di had Zhu kidnapped and had him spill the beans but only about one of the mirror's. Zhu did not say anything about the existence of a second mirror. Zhu then managed to escape his captors and send a letter to Iwao. That's the letter we get in Shenmue 1 warning us to watch out for "those who pursue the Mirror". Note worthy is the word "Mirror", it's singular and not in plural form. After Zhu sends the letter he goes back into hiding right up until he is captured by Don Niu and the events of Shenmue 2 occur.

That would mean that when Ryo prevented Lan Di from taking Zhu from Don Niu, Ryo also prevented Lan Di from forcing Zhu to reveal to him that a second mirror does indeed exist. This theory is farther enforced by the fact that Lan Di never asked Iwao for the second mirror. In bad ending of Shenmue 1, when Ryo does not go to Hong Kong, and does not prevent Lan Di from taking Zhu from Don Niu, Lan Di returns to the Huzuki Dojo and says "I heard there was a second mirror". The bad ending occurs on April the 15th. Depending on how you play Shenmue 2, the part where Don Niu hands Zhu off to Lan Di should occur some time at the end of March. Which would give Lan Di enough time to interrogate Zhu, find out about the existence of the second mirror, and be back to Japan on April 15th to confront, and possibly kill, Ryo.

By stopping Zhu's second kidnapping, not only did you stop Lan Di from learning about the second mirror, but without the knowledge of the second mirror Lan Di has no reason to go back to Japan, and the events of the "bad ending" from Shenmue 1 never take place. Meaning Fuku-san and Ine-san are never put in any danger. Meaning at the end of the Shenmue saga both Fuku-san and Ine-san should be alive.

What do you think?

[Switch]

Nice theory, I think it sounds reasonable. It assumes that Chai doesn't inform Lan Di about the existence of the second mirror after his failed attempt to grab it from Ryo at Warehouse #8, which is possible - he might have decided not to tell Lan Di until he obtains the second miror himself.

That's the letter we get in Shenmue 1 warning us to watch out for "those who pursue the Mirror". Note worthy is the word "Mirror", it's singular and not in plural form.

Just a small point, but probably not too much importance should be placed on this since the original letter in Chinese (and its Japanese translation) could be read either as "mirror" or "mirrors" since there's no distinction between singular and plural form.

[ShenGCH]

Presuming the Chi You Men ordered Lan Di to travel to Japan in order to retrieve the Mirror(s), surely they would know there were two Mirrors, especially as they plan to use them to resurrect Chi You and all that jazz? Unless they simply assumed Iwao only had one of them, but were still aware of the existence of two, I just can't see them making such an amateur mistake like that.

Are we sure what Lan Di meant by "I heard there's another Mirror" wasn't, in fact, "I heard you have the other Mirror" or something? Another translation error, perhaps?

[Switch]

Presuming the Chi You Men ordered Lan Di to travel to Japan in order to retrieve the Mirror(s), surely they would know there were two Mirrors, especially as they plan to use them to resurrect Chi You and all that jazz? Unless they simply assumed Iwao only had one of them, but were still aware of the existence of two, I just can't see them making such an amateur mistake like that.

Good point, in fact Master Chen says something similar to Ryo when he wonders why Lan Di didn't ask for both mirrors: "Perhaps he didn't realize your father had both of them."

Are we sure what Lan Di meant by "I heard there's another Mirror" wasn't, in fact, "I heard you have the other Mirror" or something? Another translation error, perhaps?

A definite possibility! So I located Lan Di's line in Japanese:

The straight-forward translation is the one used in the English version:

"I heard there's another mirror".

But the meaning can change slightly depending on the circumstances. And since Lan Di clearly believes the second mirror to be with Ryo, a valid alternative would be:

"I heard you have another mirror".

Although it doesn't specifically say "the other" mirror, this alternative would seem to be a better fit to the facts of the story.

[Himuro]

I always figured this is how it happens. It clearly shows that Ryo waited too long and obviously Lan Di got the info about the second mirror by way of either Chai or Zhu. So the theory that Ine and Fuku would be dead when Ryo gets back wouldn't make sense to me.

Anyways, one problem. Chen did know about the second mirror. In fact, he's the one who clued in Ryo about the Phoenix mirror.

[ShenGCH]

Presuming the Chi You Men ordered Lan Di to travel to Japan in order to retrieve the Mirror(s), surely they would know there were two Mirrors, especially as they plan to use them to resurrect Chi You and all that jazz? Unless they simply assumed Iwao only had one of them, but were still aware of the existence of two, I just can't see them making such an amateur mistake like that.

Good point, in fact Master Chen says something similar to Ryo when he wonders why Lan Di didn't ask for both mirrors: "Perhaps he didn't realize your father had both of them."

Are we sure what Lan Di meant by "I heard there's another Mirror" wasn't, in fact, "I heard you have the other Mirror" or something? Another translation error, perhaps?

A definite possibility! So I located Lan Di's line in Japanese:

The straight-forward translation is the one used in the English version:

"I heard there's another mirror".

But the meaning can change slightly depending on the circumstances. And since Lan Di clearly believes the second mirror to be with Ryo, a valid alternative would be:

"I heard you have another mirror".

Although it doesn't specifically say "the other" mirror, this alternative would seem to be a better fit to the facts of the story.

Iwao was also smart enough to make Lan Di believe he was in possession of just one Mirror, as per their first dialogue exchange: "For the last time, where is the Mirror?" (notice how it's just "the Mirror," implying it's singular) with Iwao answering simply, "I've no intention of telling you."

I'm guessing the Chi You Men had no idea he was in possession of both, perhaps (quite foolishly) surmising he kept them separate to make it harder for them to find. Maybe they thought Zhu had the other?

[johnvivant]

if Tentei knew that Iwao had both mirrors he would certainly have ordered lan di to take them both.

but then again maybe Tentei's plan is more elaborate and devious, and even lan di himself is just a pawn in his game to achieve total power. Maybe Tentei is manipulating Lan di, only informing him of that which is convenient for achieving his own ends, and secretly plans to betray him later, fearing his power. Lan di himself may even have a secret plan to betray tentei, something he may resolve upon when he discovers Tentei's real plans, or even before.

Tentei may even have wanted Ryo to become involved in this whole thing, because he knew of Ryo's 'destiny'. Maybe he believes he can corrupt Ryo to join the dark side - chiyoumen. 'Take your place at my side!' I can feel your anger... it makes you strong! take revenge for your father, strike him down, and take your rightful place at my side!

Lan di seems too ruthless and intelligent to be successfully manipulated though.

[nl4m]

Nice theory, I think it sounds reasonable. It assumes that Chai doesn't inform Lan Di about the existence of the second mirror after his failed attempt to grab it from Ryo at Warehouse #8, which is possible - he might have decided not to tell Lan Di until he obtains the second miror himself.

That's the letter we get in Shenmue 1 warning us to watch out for "those who pursue the Mirror". Note worthy is the word "Mirror", it's singular and not in plural form.

Just a small point, but probably not too much importance should be placed on this since the original letter in Chinese (and its Japanese translation) could be read either as "mirror" or "mirrors" since there's no distinction between singular and plural form.

All Chai wants to do is get the mirror himself and move up the rankings of the Chi Yu Men. That's why he attacks Ryo 3 times without tell anyone, anything.

As many people have claimed Chai will be back in the series. Maybe to inform Lan Di of the second mirror?

[nl4m]

Presuming the Chi You Men ordered Lan Di to travel to Japan in order to retrieve the Mirror(s), surely they would know there were two Mirrors, especially as they plan to use them to resurrect Chi You and all that jazz? Unless they simply assumed Iwao only had one of them, but were still aware of the existence of two, I just can't see them making such an amateur mistake like that.

Are we sure what Lan Di meant by "I heard there's another Mirror" wasn't, in fact, "I heard you have the other Mirror" or something? Another translation error, perhaps?

I think the mirror's are a "Lan Di only" thing. The dragon mirror was his fathers, he was the only one who went to get the dragon mirror, he was the one who wanted to capture Zhu, and he was the one who went to Guilin.

Lets say you're right. They knew of both mirror's... That leaves a lot of unanswered questions: How did Zhu know to send the letter to Iwao? Why didn't Lan Di originally ask for the second mirror? Why did Lan Di return to Japan right after the events of Shenmue 2, asking for the second mirror? And why was Zhu hiding (in Shenmue 2)?

[nl4m]

I always figured this is how it happens. It clearly shows that Ryo waited too long and obviously Lan Di got the info about the second mirror by way of either Chai or Zhu. So the theory that Ine and Fuku would be dead when Ryo gets back wouldn't make sense to me.

Anyways, one problem. Chen did know about the second mirror. In fact, he's the one who clued in Ryo about the Phoenix mirror.

All Master Chen knows about the mirror is what he learned from Zhu. Once you find the Phoenix mirror and bring it to Master Chen. To describe the mirror all Chen says is: "Once Zhu told me...". Chen doesn't know much himself. Nor does the antique dealer who was polishing Iwao's sword guard.

[darksniper]

By the time Lan Di realizes there is a second mirror, Ryo won't have it by then. Good luck to Lan-Di trying to get it from this dudes hands.

[ShenGCH]

Presuming the Chi You Men ordered Lan Di to travel to Japan in order to retrieve the Mirror(s), surely they would know there were two Mirrors, especially as they plan to use them to resurrect Chi You and all that jazz? Unless they simply assumed Iwao only had one of them, but were still aware of the existence of two, I just can't see them making such an amateur mistake like that.

Are we sure what Lan Di meant by "I heard there's another Mirror" wasn't, in fact, "I heard you have the other Mirror" or something? Another translation error, perhaps?

I think the mirror's are a "Lan Di only" thing. The dragon mirror was his fathers, he was the only one who went to get the dragon mirror, he was the one who wanted to capture Zhu, and he was the one who went to Guilin.

Lets say you're right. They knew of both mirror's... That leaves a lot of unanswered questions: How did Zhu know to send the letter to Iwao? Why didn't Lan Di originally ask for the second mirror? Why did Lan Di return to Japan right after the events of Shenmue 2, asking for the second mirror? And why was Zhu hiding (in Shenmue 2)?

To answer your questions:

1. Zhu might have some insider information, and Lan Di planning to pursue Iwao was one of the things that came back to him. Or perhaps he felt Lan Di would inevitably find Iwao at some point, and it was just sheer coincidence it happened to be at that time. The latter actually has some proof behind it in the form of the letter Ryo finds in Iwao's room, which heavily implies Iwao knew fate would catch up to him some day

2. The Chi You Men must have known two Mirrors were required in order to resurrect Chi You - it's the very reason they're named as such after all - but might have made a poor error in judgement (or possibly misinformation) that Iwao had just one of them. As far as Lan Di's information went, he was clearly only aware of just one in Iwao's possession. If Lan Di knew Iwao had both, Ryo would either be dead (having been sacrificed by Iwao not giving up the ghost) and/or he'd have turned the place upside-down to find it

3. Lan Di returning to Japan, triggering the bad ending, implies Lan Di had already travelled to China, managed to make contact with (and probably interrogate) Zhu for information, found out about the location of the second Mirror, and made his way back to Japan to claim it. The only thing stopping Lan Di from leaving Japan immediately after taking the Mirror was the Long Zha, thus bringing time into the equation, and if the player takes too long to make it to Hong Kong, Lan Di returning is the consequence

4. We have no idea for how long Zhu was in hiding, but, as proposed in my first answer, perhaps he has access to insider information, and seeing as he is part of the debacle with the Mirrors, and holds a lot of knowledge regarding their power, he's an obvious target for the Chi You Men

[Kodama667]

I always assumed it was heavily implied that the bad ending comes from Lan Di capturing Yuanda Zhu. Everyone seems to know there are two mirrors, Lan di just didn't know Iwao had both...

[Himuro]

I always figured this is how it happens. It clearly shows that Ryo waited too long and obviously Lan Di got the info about the second mirror by way of either Chai or Zhu. So the theory that Ine and Fuku would be dead when Ryo gets back wouldn't make sense to me.

Anyways, one problem. Chen did know about the second mirror. In fact, he's the one who clued in Ryo about the Phoenix mirror.

All Master Chen knows about the mirror is what he learned from Zhu. Once you find the Phoenix mirror and bring it to Master Chen. To describe the mirror all Chen says is: "Once Zhu told me...". Chen doesn't know much himself. Nor does the antique dealer who was polishing Iwao's sword guard.

Are you sure about this? When Ryo tells him Lan Di has the mirror Chen immediately asks if only one mirror was taken. Chen already knows there's two mirrors. More than that, he already knows Iwao had both mirrors. I highly suggest you rewatch that scene. I know the dialogue there verbatim and he says literally, and I quote,"was only one mirror stolen?" Excuse me?" "I asked if only one mirror was stolen."

[SlySpy]

I always figured this is how it happens. It clearly shows that Ryo waited too long and obviously Lan Di got the info about the second mirror by way of either Chai or Zhu. So the theory that Ine and Fuku would be dead when Ryo gets back wouldn't make sense to me.

Anyways, one problem. Chen did know about the second mirror. In fact, he's the one who clued in Ryo about the Phoenix mirror.

All Master Chen knows about the mirror is what he learned from Zhu. Once you find the Phoenix mirror and bring it to Master Chen. To describe the mirror all Chen says is: "Once Zhu told me...". Chen doesn't know much himself. Nor does the antique dealer who was polishing Iwao's sword guard.

Are you sure about this? When Ryo tells him Lan Di has the mirror Chen immediately asks if only one mirror was taken. Chen already knows there's two mirrors. More than that, he already knows Iwao had both mirrors. I highly suggest you rewatch that scene. I know the dialogue there verbatim and he says literally, and I quote,"was only one mirror stolen?" Excuse me?" "I asked if only one mirror was stolen."

This is true. Ryo's entire reason for searching for the Phoenix mirror at his house is because Chen told him about it. A large chunk of disc 2 is based around that plot point.

It is clear that at the very least, Chen and Zhu knew that Iwao possessed both mirrors, or at least suspected as much.