How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritual?

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby NeoShredder » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:08 pm

I'm going to leave this here:

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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby Nahovil » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:32 pm

Himuro wrote:Naw, spirituality is deeply woven within Shenmue. The dragon, the Phoenix, the stars (remember the Chinese lady in 1 talking about the stars and its influence on Chinese culture, they even segue the scene into Shenhua staring at them at night), the cosmology, it's all there. Lishao Tao is a Taoist priest. The ethical grounds are universal, but it would be incorrect to say Shenmue is not steeped in eastern religion.



I quite clearly recognize all of these features. I disagree. As I wrote, these elements come about as an heritage of times past, with superstition (somewhat apart from an otherworldly, so-called spiritual sense) still commonplace in Chinese society. Shenmue is deeply steeped in eastern philosophy.
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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby Himuro » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:30 am

Nahovil wrote:
Himuro wrote:Naw, spirituality is deeply woven within Shenmue. The dragon, the Phoenix, the stars (remember the Chinese lady in 1 talking about the stars and its influence on Chinese culture, they even segue the scene into Shenhua staring at them at night), the cosmology, it's all there. Lishao Tao is a Taoist priest. The ethical grounds are universal, but it would be incorrect to say Shenmue is not steeped in eastern religion.



I quite clearly recognize all of these features. I disagree. As I wrote, these elements come about as an heritage of times past, with superstition (somewhat apart from an otherworldly, so-called spiritual sense) still commonplace in Chinese society. Shenmue is deeply steeped in eastern philosophy.


Wait, you disagree? But you agree it is steeped in Eastern philosophy? Huh?
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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby BayStone » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:03 am

Himuro wrote:
Nahovil wrote:
Himuro wrote:Naw, spirituality is deeply woven within Shenmue. The dragon, the Phoenix, the stars (remember the Chinese lady in 1 talking about the stars and its influence on Chinese culture, they even segue the scene into Shenhua staring at them at night), the cosmology, it's all there. Lishao Tao is a Taoist priest. The ethical grounds are universal, but it would be incorrect to say Shenmue is not steeped in eastern religion.



I quite clearly recognize all of these features. I disagree. As I wrote, these elements come about as an heritage of times past, with superstition (somewhat apart from an otherworldly, so-called spiritual sense) still commonplace in Chinese society. Shenmue is deeply steeped in eastern philosophy.


Wait, you disagree? But you agree it is steeped in Eastern philosophy? Huh?


Yeah, I'm with Nahovil on this one. I guess this is somewhat an issue of semantics, but to me, the game in and of itself has not shown practically any spirituality, as of yet. There's of course quite a lot of philosophy in it, understandably, but like most martial arts, it doesn't really enter the spiritual realm. It could, but it sort of chooses not to which is probably for the better as that would make it even more obscure and hard to take in and this game doesn't really need that. :D
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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby Himuro » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:16 am

So Shenhua blowing flowers with her ki, having the ability to recall past memories in the past, tales of prophecy, the spiritual forces of the naturalistic Guilin compared to the urban centers in the rest of the game weren't enough to clue you into super natural forces? Of course, this is up to a manner of definition of what spirituality. What I speak of in regards of spirituality is religion, philosophies, and ideas that are tied to the nature of the spirit. Not supernatural forces, though that could easily be inserted into Shenmue as well as we saw from the Online trailers and the floating sword and the aforementioned examples.

When I speak of spirituality in Shenmue, I speak of what I discussed in this post, not ki or supernatural forces.

Himuro wrote: I love it. It perfectly punctuates the general tone of the series, and especially which throws it right in your face. Ryo goes through a decaying, decrepit old crime filled city in order to find information on his fathers killer. Kowloon represents Ryo's inner demons as the cracks expose themselves leading to his own perdition. Xiuying tells him as much in the church and many times in Honk Kong. The analogy for Ryo's spiritual journey from Kowloon to Guilin is both figurative and literal in the scope of the games themes. Ryo, having found Zhu Yuanda, travels from a place that eats his soul and forces him to go to extremes to find vengeance that will never sate him, to a place separated from civilization, surrounded by nature in all of its wonders. It is through the nature of spirituality and friendship, which Ryo starts to embrace as seen in the Tai Chi scene at the crag, that will save Ryo and deliver him from becoming the exact person he hates.

The naturalism vs urbanism dynamic in II is a natural part of the evolution of the story, and one that gives it far more emotional weight.

I don't take it as an west vs east debate. I think that pits the story at its most reduced form. After all, Hong Kong is more advanced than Yokosuka which is a small town and many people that live in these places, like Xiuying, are on the straight and narrow. It isn't about west vs east, so much as I feel it is about Ryo's spiritual transformation as he grows from boy to man. He has two options. He thinks he NEEDS revenge, but it consumes him. The secret to his sating heartache is within him all along, and that is his own natural spirit.

The spiritualism is needed.

Further, I think people's take on east vs west debate is exotifying the east and trying to find a way to say the east is better when this is never explicitly said in neither games at all.


Basically, I think a lot of people are talking about different things here. Flying and shit is not spirituality. Philosophy, ethics, religions are spirituality. Ki blasts and flying Goku style is Supernatural. Two different things. So no, I don't think Shenmue has become OVERLY supernatural - yet - so I actually agree with the two of you, it's just that we are experiencing a different in terms and communication. :)
Last edited by Himuro on Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby Taren Fox » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:16 am

Don't become Matrix Revolutions. I don't want to see Ryo flying around fighting Lan Di.

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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby BayStone » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:42 am

Himuro wrote:Basically, I think a lot of people are talking about different things here.


I think somewhat yes...

Himuro wrote:Philosophy, ethics, religions are spirituality.


This is where we differ, I think. Spirituality to me the things you mentioned, but extended. I see it this way: you can talk philosophy without being spiritual. Thus, philosophy in and of itself is not spiritual.

Himuro wrote:Ki blasts and flying Goku style is Supernatural. Two different things. So no, I don't think Shenmue has become OVERLY supernatural - yet - so I actually agree with the two of you, it's just that we are experiencing a different in terms and communication. :)


I think this is where we agree... I think. :) I do hope that some of Matrix Revolutions stuff happens, which to me is only a good thing. Also, just to be an ass, :twisted: when I say Matrix Revolutions stuff I don't mean flying.
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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby Nahovil » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:42 am

Himuro, the very notion of spirit itself pertains to the supernatural. While religion concerns spirituality, philosophy and the branch of ethics, in and of themselves, do not (as BayStone put it), and therefrom do I downplay the influence of said phenomenon in the series. "The spiritual forces of the naturalistic Guilin" is very much an antithetical idea.

Now, at the very end of II, there's obviously no denying that something does happen there, and, lo and behold, it looks like we'll actually find out what.
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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby shredingskin » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:50 am

DO someone know what's Suzuki religion ?
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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby killthesagabeforeitkillsu » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:53 am

shredingskin wrote: DO someone know what's Suzuki religion ?


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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby alexh86 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:57 am

It's all part of the deepening of the story. Ryo begins on a simple quest for revenge, first discovers that the quest will take him from his home country, then discovers that it goes deeper than the physical world, then... who knows?
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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby BayStone » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:42 am

shredingskin wrote: DO someone know what's Suzuki religion ?


Most likely a mix between shintoism and buddhism, like most japanese. EDIT: And as he has been interested in martial arts, but with a hint of zen in there as well. Although I'm not sure if that makes sense semantically. :???:

Nahovil wrote: Himuro, the very notion of spirit itself pertains to the supernatural.


Now, this is where we differ. Partially. :D But that's all I'm gonna say about that.
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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby Himuro » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:07 am

Nahovil wrote: Himuro, the very notion of spirit itself pertains to the supernatural. While religion concerns spirituality, philosophy and the branch of ethics, in and of themselves, do not (as BayStone put it), and therefrom do I downplay the influence of said phenomenon in the series. "The spiritual forces of the naturalistic Guilin" is very much an antithetical idea.

Now, at the very end of II, there's obviously no denying that something does happen there, and, lo and behold, it looks like we'll actually find out what.



No it's not. I'm atheist and a spiritual Buddhist. To me the spirit is myself and how I improve as a person and the world around me.
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Re: How Do You Feel About Shenmue III Becoming More Spiritua

Postby Nahovil » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:54 am

BayStone, I welcome any expansion on that.


Himuro, so, you use the term metaphorically? The spirit is yourself and what you choose to do? Are you saying a spirit pertains to the physical world, or to matter? Its very purpose is referring to transcendence of matter.
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