I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby artnos » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:10 pm

Is anyone a developer commenting on this thread. I think the reason why didn't just use the old model was maybe they had a premade model with a built in skeleton with animation. So it would be easier to remodel that one. If they brought in the old model they would have to rebuild the skeleton. If I remember correctly I don’t think Shenmue had complex facial animation or even moving fingers.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby MiTT3NZ » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:19 pm

Himuro wrote: A lot of assumptions about game development here from people who don't develop games.

"Polygons are polygons."

Heh. But in anyway, I agree the model didn't look good, but the model shown in Famitsu (shown above) was absolutely fine to me.


-_-

They have a physical sculpt of Ryo's head. They have scanners and scans. High and low poly models. Even if they only had them in .mt5-7 files, are you genuinely telling me that a community of fans have found a way to convert them yet SEGA hasn't? On top of this, the software they used is legacy software, meaning old file formats are convertible via their modern day equivalents. Not to mention the plethora of 3D model conversion software available on the internet.

A lot of the people in this topic are making assumptions, yes. Said assumptions are, however, correct.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby killthesagabeforeitkillsu » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:22 pm

You don't have to be a dev to understand the models and textures look bad because they were rushed.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby punkmanced » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:56 pm

killthesagabeforeitkillsu wrote: You don't have to be a dev to understand the models and textures look bad because they were rushed.


This.

The question is: how the hell did it get to this point?
They must have been secretly working for months (years?) regarding the fate of Shenmue...and this Saturn-era looking motherf***er is what they decide to use as the face of the KS campaign...which is directly responsible for the entire future of the series.

After all that's happened in the past, one would think that, by this point, Yu Suzuki would've had the foresight to hire actual [competent] Shenmue fans who could actually prove the input needed to get this series on track while avoiding basic pitfalls. ](*,)
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby killthesagabeforeitkillsu » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:03 pm

punkmanced wrote:
killthesagabeforeitkillsu wrote: You don't have to be a dev to understand the models and textures look bad because they were rushed.


This.

The question is: how the hell did it get to this point?
They must have been secretly working for months (years?) regarding the fate of Shenmue...and this Saturn-era looking motherf***er is what they decide to use as the face of the KS campaign...which is directly responsible for the entire future of the series.

After all that's happened in the past, one would think that, by this point, Yu Suzuki would've had the foresight to hire actual [competent] Shenmue fans who could actually prove the input needed to get this series on track while avoiding basic pitfalls. ](*,)


There was no "secret work for months/years". Yu Suzuki was probably as surprised as us when Sony gave green light. Then he made something up on the way to E3 and tweeted a forklift.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby punkmanced » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:17 pm

…or better yet, everything was done during E3, at the Sony booth, after YS strolled in and casually asked if they knew what “Shen-moo” was…and if they’d be interested in girl scout cookies.

Sony, while hesitant at first, finally caved after our boy offered to throw in his gardening services as well.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby elmatto » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:56 pm

The main difference I can tell is that the older models relied more heavily on textures, whereas the new models do not.
If there are any 3d modelers out there, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby BayStone » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:20 pm

MiTT3NZ wrote:
Himuro wrote: A lot of assumptions about game development here from people who don't develop games.

"Polygons are polygons."

Heh. But in anyway, I agree the model didn't look good, but the model shown in Famitsu (shown above) was absolutely fine to me.


-_-

They have a physical sculpt of Ryo's head. They have scanners and scans. High and low poly models. Even if they only had them in .mt5-7 files, are you genuinely telling me that a community of fans have found a way to convert them yet SEGA hasn't? On top of this, the software they used is legacy software, meaning old file formats are convertible via their modern day equivalents. Not to mention the plethora of 3D model conversion software available on the internet.

A lot of the people in this topic are making assumptions, yes. Said assumptions are, however, correct.


They have... Sega has, had. As far as we know, Neilo, Yu, Ysnet may have nothing. Or nothing they can actually use. EDIT: Then there's the issue of even wanthing to use scans, if that was an option. They might not.

Community efforts are rarely on the level they need to be for commercial development.

Older formats compatible with new software... not really. Usually, but not really. 3D model formats are a scourge of game development. To this day, they cause problems on a daily basis. But, let's assume you can get it "successfully" converted, the question then becomes was it actually, truly successful. Okay, it was, now it's up to the artist to make it modern. At some point he or she may start to think and usually will, "What the hell is this crap", at which point, he or she wants to start from scratch anyway as that would probably, eventually, be quicker and more effcient.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby Mr. Frozen » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:30 pm

artnos wrote: Is anyone a developer commenting on this thread. I think the reason why didn't just use the old model was maybe they had a premade model with a built in skeleton with animation. So it would be easier to remodel that one. If they brought in the old model they would have to rebuild the skeleton. If I remember correctly I don’t think Shenmue had complex facial animation or even moving fingers.


You are pretty much correct. The old model used shading in the cheeks to make a better overall look without having a sophisticated lighting system in the game.

There is shadowing on the cheeks and chin in the dreamcast ryo to provide the illusion of good lighting without actually having to calculate proper shadows. The new ryo has a flat texture without no shading, but the rendering engine doesn't make use of soft shadows on the characters, or ambient occlusion (basically shadows around corners) to provide us with a depth reference. The result is the craptastic ryo that is presented. Shadows play a massive role in computer graphics, and without them everything looks artificial or out of place. It is obvious that the video was hastily put together using old software, and without any regard towards detail.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby drunkensailor » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:49 am

Himuro wrote: Because game development hasn't started yet and it was a concept video? :roll:

so? I don't think you read the op very well :roll:
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby Jackie Fhan » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:07 am

drunkensailor wrote:
Himuro wrote: Because game development hasn't started yet and it was a concept video? :roll:

so? I don't think you read the op very well :roll:



To be fair guys


They didn't have any lip movement or facial animations.

I understand some things well (maybe) because we don't know how much time they had to make the video

A)If they had to rush and they just wanted to show something, in this situation it makes even less sense for them tomake some ugly models and just not re texture old models.

One of you tried to explain that the models don't work with new skeleton systems and movment... I don't think they are even close to that point anyways.

My basic idea is, why were they showing something that was so ugly when they could have showed something off more beautiful more easily

B) if they weren't rushed and had time to work on these models... that is a bit more worrying


All in all, of course I am one for wait and see how it works. I would like to see the game late next year to see how these things are working. I have no doubt they could look good. I won't say they will look good and be up to standards though.

Obviously a game this early in development needs more than just good character models anyways. I really hope the game can expand it's gameplay and I honestly never thought the fighting felt that good anyways. I hope that can now feel like a true virtua fighter
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby ash55 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:44 am

Hey guys, speaking of this subject, I painted over the original model and made a little gif of how I think they could maybe improve the model (if anyone wants to see). (Similar idea to the Shenhua concept Yu posted on twitter).

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/533 ... kigif3.gif
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby Esppiral » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:03 am

I still can't understand WHY they decided to make new (awful) models from scratch when they have, artwork, 3D models clay sculpts, etc to base them on.

It is just a waste ot time and resources, about, old models being old for new engines... well...
Last edited by Esppiral on Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby BlueMue » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:06 am

My guess it that they just wanted to show something new. Just to let people know that this is not just some rehash or something. Or maybe they're not allowed to use the old 3D models, wich wouldn't make much sense, since they can use all the artworks and everything.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby Jackie Fhan » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:14 am

BlueMue wrote: My guess it that they just wanted to show something new. Just to let people know that this is not just some rehash or something. Or maybe they're not allowed to use the old 3D models, wich wouldn't make much sense, since they can use all the artworks and everything.

So, is the person making the models just not very talented? that would be my next question
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It would help if you are good in gothic, blood, facial expressions and action posses as well as the idea of having some joke items thrown in as well

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