New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Zoltor » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:23 pm

shredingskin wrote: The pulley systen was used in HK martial arts all the time, and he really like those. It's not that much about how much they fly, it's about how good can you feel (and if you can believe it).

The original reactions in Shenmue were like that also, they would do 720s before hitting the ground, but also a block move implied a 1 second "stunned" time.

Most of the moves in Shenmue are quite impractical and unrealistic, we believe those, and it's ok.

In Shenmue there are "blocking enemies" that would block you most of your attacks favouring counter attacks, that's cool from an strategy point, but from a gaming side it's "that guy did that slap motion and I can't do anything for a couple of seconds".

"There's this thing in videogames theory called kinastethics (or another bullshit term), about how "good" it feels to land a blow, to walk in water, to punch a breakeable thing, etc. Pretty much "make it feel nice" when the character does something good. Shenmue has a lot of this, but it doesn't mean it can't be improved. For example (again) elbow assault had that concrete sound (from bajiquan that likes to make a lot of sound), but by the type of move it was simply too easy to pull, too powerful and too fast (with little recovery time)."

There are great stuff in Shenmue, for example a high kick and ryo crouches (it feels great), but at the same time the same move (button), can just block (and it doesn't feel that great, and that goes also for enemies).

There are a lot of ways to make things feel cool, without losing the realism (pretend realism), and make things flow.

Let's be sincere, in Shenmue (specially II), there were the 1 hit KO opponents and the ones you kinda wait to counter most of the time. That is interesting in some way, but it doesn't feel THAT cool. I think there's room for improvement.

Shenmue I/II were great, but SIII could be greater (at least in some regards). Kinda funny since despite all the improvements of SII I still like Shen I quite a bit more.


Omg please don't tell me you're that guy on youtube trying to use that as a excuse as to why some people think that Zelda OoT is better then alttp(OoT is a utter POS in reality), just because the sound of the sword was cooler, and running around was more enjoyable.

You know what's more enjoyable, if when you hit someone, they get knocked around in the way you would expect, going by the laws of physics, instead of being knocked back in the most generic ways, "to be cool". Infact the way Yu stated it, makes it sound like he's doing this because he wants to get rid of multiple hit boxes, which is another thing that would be very bad in of its self as well.

Um, It's very simple, don't expect enemies to not block your head on attacks(side step or use moves like the Shadow Step), really, in r/l would you expect someone to just stand there, letting you beat the crap out of them, I think not.
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby shredingskin » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:01 pm

No, I'm telling you real design/strategy choices. In Shenmue you can elbow assault the fuck of everyone, or bock and attack (again elbow assault best choice).

Look at Iwao's death, look at how enemies do their spin (or lie in the heroic war pose).

Even then, I'm not talking that much of how enemies do, but what YOU do. Play against dou niu, it's a counter attack game (to add to the irony, you kill him with COUNTER ELBOW ASSAULT).

Shenmue is really easy, you can elbow assault+dodge the whole game (ok, not in first chai battle). You have lots of moves that require more recoil time if blocked and require more execution time and are more difficult to do, that does not make much sennse.

I would be fine if SIII stayed the way it is (it has a lot of things most 3D beat them ups today don't have), but I think SIII can be better. Maybe the future says SIII is a yakuza rip-off, I don't know. But it can be better for sure.
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Zoltor » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:07 pm

shredingskin wrote: No, I'm telling you real design/strategy choices. In Shenmue you can elbow assault the fuck of everyone, or bock and attack (again elbow assault best choice).

Look at Iwao's death, look at how enemies do their spin (or lie in the heroic war pose).

Even then, I'm not talking that much of how enemies do, but what YOU do. Play against dou niu, it's a counter attack game (to add to the irony, you kill him with COUNTER ELBOW ASSAULT).

Shenmue is really easy, you can elbow assault+dodge the whole game (ok, not in first chai battle). You have lots of moves that require more recoil time if blocked and require more execution time and are more difficult to do, that does not make much sennse.

I would be fine if SIII stayed the way it is (it has a lot of things most 3D beat them ups today don't have), but I think SIII can be better. Maybe the future says SIII is a yakuza rip-off, I don't know. But it can be better for sure.


In real life battles, what it comes down to, is dodging, and countering as well. Better, as in a better enemy AI sure or a better balancing of the moves perhaps, but turning it into a generic beat em up(with just the moves being harder to pull off, since they require hitting more buttons), is not making anything better.
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby shredingskin » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:37 pm

"realistic fight" you can actually kill a person with a good hit, or leave it knock out.

It's neck turning, and brain hitting the head that can literally KO you. Without getting to really gore stuff, like a solid and puncturing hit on the weak part of the temple that it does kill you.

For someone that hasn't had their nose broken, an up punch to the nose can bleed them out of breathing.

Yeah, it's about feeling good, engaged, it's a game. You can have various styles of playing, and Yu knows (I imagine), I understand that people don't like things changed, or the character of X, but it can be quite cool. At worst it sucks and we have a Yakuza, and at best, another great thing that we have not yet played.

Again, try elboing assault everyone and block + countering everyone, to see how realistic Shenmue is.

Some people like KOF, some SF, some SC. Yu seems to know what Shenmue is about (still).
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Zoltor » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:44 am

shredingskin wrote: "realistic fight" you can actually kill a person with a good hit, or leave it knock out.

It's neck turning, and brain hitting the head that can literally KO you. Without getting to really gore stuff, like a solid and puncturing hit on the weak part of the temple that it does kill you.

For someone that hasn't had their nose broken, an up punch to the nose can bleed them out of breathing.

Yeah, it's about feeling good, engaged, it's a game. You can have various styles of playing, and Yu knows (I imagine), I understand that people don't like things changed, or the character of X, but it can be quite cool. At worst it sucks and we have a Yakuza, and at best, another great thing that we have not yet played.

Again, try elboing assault everyone and block + countering everyone, to see how realistic Shenmue is.

Some people like KOF, some SF, some SC. Yu seems to know what Shenmue is about (still).


I can see it now, Shenmue 3 turning into a 3D version of TMNT turtles in time, in the name of, supposedly making it feel good sigh(as if the damn Shenmue fighting system didn't feel good already). Oh Shenmue's fighting system was really special while it lasted. I wonder what else is going to be pissed down the drain, if the fighting system is going to be changed, literally nothing is safe anymore.

Is it time to bring the super detailed minimap+the go here next pointer, because having to figure out where to go, doesn't feel good to a lot of people?
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby ShenSun » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:40 am

There is a japanese donating system that i did see a kickstarter use once. Dammit, i cant remember which project it was? I need to search through my history.
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Gavan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:05 am

Personally, I fully trust Yu Suzuki. After all, he created the two best games of all time. His new ideas sound pretty cool and interesting. If he wants to try something new with the fighting system, that is fine with me. I'm sure he knows what he's doing. I just hope he has enough money...
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Gen » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:07 am

I really enjoyed the fighting system in Shenmue, but to be honest it also felt a bit awkward and for a modern game I think it would have to changed somewhat.

My main complaint would be that the fights were often a bit too easy. you could often win a big fight by mashing and that was often the quickest and best way to win. I often used special-moves because it was fun but rarely felt the need to use them to win. Shenmue was made to be an effortless and forgiving game but sometimes I think they should have included different difficulty levels for the fighting.

Another aspect that could be improved is directional control and a better visual awareness of the battle. Often you hit in the wrong direction and I really didn't like the first-person mode in some of the fights in S2. I think the main thing here is that the virtua fighter system isn't a very good system for fights against multiple opponents. Although it's very good for 1on1 boss fights.

The best fighting system for multiple opponents I have encountered is in Arkham Asylum, where you have very good directional control and a perfect camera angle. This system has the downside of not having a large movelist, and it's not as good when fighting against a single opponent.

Yu and the main programmer, Hirai, have both talked about combining QTE with the old battle system and making something new. I hope that doesn't mean the traditional scripted QTEs because that would be very disappointing. Instead what I'm hoping for is a system similair to that the Arkham-series where a button icon shows up at certain moments, maybe after a certain combo sequence has been executed, allowing for a special move, or right before an enemy attack, allowing you to dogde. This system sort of looks like a QTE but it's not scripted and all depends on what's happening in the fight.

I don't really know what to think. I play alot of fighting games, and personally have no problem with a tecnical, or difficult fighting system, as I said earlier I think its often to easy in Shenmue. At the same time I can understand when Yu says he wants to make a system 'more fitting to Shenmue' (can't remember the exact phrasing) becasue a technical virtua-fighter style system sort of goes against the casual and laid back nature of the rest of the game. And then you have to water it down somewhat and make it more mash-friendly, and that's kind of disappointing. So a part of me thinks that a more realistic Arkham-style system could be preferable, it's more direct and responsive while still providing enough difficulty. You can't mash your way through the fights, the system is based on timing and spacing, and the fights look amazing.

Anyway, it's gonna be a tough nut to crack, can't wait too see the first demo of the battle system.
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Zoltor » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:19 am

Gavan wrote: Personally, I fully trust Yu Suzuki. After all, he created the two best games of all time. His new ideas sound pretty cool and interesting. If he wants to try something new with the fighting system, that is fine with me. I'm sure he knows what he's doing. I just hope he has enough money...



Yea, I really want to take that stance as well, but we also have to keep in mind it has been 14 years since he made such, and he hasn't worked on anything major since either. He's also getting older, so perhaps he doesn't have as much ambition anymore.

It's really scary, the things he's saying, and naturally we just need to wait, but in either way, in no way is this new direction he's taking the battle system, a good thing.

The most we can hope for about that, is for it to not completely suck, and that the watered down battle system doesn't effect the game too much. Luckily Shenmue is about so much more then the battle system, but It's still a huge disappointment, especially since It's a pretty big aspect.


To Gen: That wouldn't require tossing out the physics based mechanics though. That would require better AIs, and better balancing of the skill.
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Giorgio » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:23 am

Personally, the Battle System is the least thing I would care about Shenmue 3. The Guilin region in Shenmue II, didn't have fighting at all, and it is a glimpse of where the true spirit of the Shenmue series resides. It's a glimpse of the quintessence of interactive storytelling.

I had rather wish Yu Suzuki to spend more money on the Rapport and Character Perspective System, than that. I want humanness and spiritualness to reach a higher quality this time, and feel more empathy and deeper emotions for the characters and a stronger contextual bonding with the world.

As for the Battle System, I fully support Yu's vision to it depend mostly on decisions/intuition, a thinking-based one, rather than mostly on reflexives.

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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Gavan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:30 am

Zoltor wrote:

It's really scary, the things he's saying, and naturally we just need to wait, but in either way, in no way is this new direction he's taking the battle system, a good thing.



How do you know that? They haven't even started working on the battle system yet and you already know it is going to suck :???:
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Gen » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:35 am

Giorgio wrote: Personally, the Battle System is the least thing I would care about Shenmue 3. The Guilin region in Shenmue II, didn't have fighting at all, and it is a glimpse of where the true spirit of the Shenmue series resides. It's a glimpse of the quintessence of interactive storytelling.

I had rather wish Yu Suzuki to spend more money on the Rapport and Character Perspective System, than that. I want humanness and spiritualness to reach a higher quality this time, and feel more empathy and deeper emotions for the characters and a stronger contextual bonding with the world.

As for the Battle System, I fully support Yu's vision to it depend mostly on decisions/intuition, a thinking-based one, rather than mostly on reflexives.


Yeah, fully agree. Wouldn't hurt with an amazing battle system though. :) But like you said I wouldn't want it to take up too much of the resources.

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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Zoltor » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:47 am

Gavan wrote:
Zoltor wrote:

It's really scary, the things he's saying, and naturally we just need to wait, but in either way, in no way is this new direction he's taking the battle system, a good thing.



How do you know that? They haven't even started working on the battle system yet and you already know it is going to suck :???:



Realistic physics vs fake as hell, so called cool knocked around mechanics, doesn't take a person with the ability to see into the future, to figure out that the 2nd thing is definitely a negative.
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby Gavan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:00 am

Zoltor wrote:
Gavan wrote:
Zoltor wrote:

It's really scary, the things he's saying, and naturally we just need to wait, but in either way, in no way is this new direction he's taking the battle system, a good thing.



How do you know that? They haven't even started working on the battle system yet and you already know it is going to suck :???:



Realistic physics vs fake as hell, so called cool knocked around mechanics, doesn't take a person with the ability to see into the future, to figure out that the 2nd thing is definitely a negative.


Who knows what Yu has in mind exactly. It is all just speculation at this point. Until you see the system in action and actually play the game you can't know how it will work or how good it will be.
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Re: New Famitsu Interview with Yu (Sept 8th)

Postby strider16 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:27 am

Great second part!

Let's hope Yu don't think too much about forklifts... They are a fan favorite, and an icon for the game, but just some reference about would suffice, I'd rather not having them if it would mean removing a more compelling feature in game.

About fighting, I think Yu has a fairly good background about it, both in make games (as seen in VF series) and real knowledge (he may not be an actual fighter but Shenmue is the result of a lot of researches he did). If someone can think and implement a new way of fighting and not fighting in game, it is Yu.

I get somehow more optimistic too about the size of the game map, it isnt carved in stone yet. And a little concerned about recruiting UE4 programmers. Since he is not in AM2 anymore, how the team management will work? I don't think he is planning to hire a third party team, but having each member of the team with him... this seems "right", but is this really the case?

C'mon monthly updates! The game seems to be great!
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