Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby Nahovil » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:54 pm

Spaghetti wrote:
Nahovil wrote:Unfortunately, it has been too common seeing that they're spending the time on producing HDR imagery and intricate texturing, only to collage an image of Ryo's original face onto a new 3D model, as an example in misdriven effort out of many.

Going to dig up the workflow slide to give context to this again. The function testing bit is effectively the period we've come out of, the prototyping.

Image

This should elaborate why game world elements have current priority over character models. It's also a bigger job than working on a character model, which is why it has been loaded towards the earlier part of development rather than the latter.



Thanks for bringing it up, but I definitely wasn't making it a question of whether character or world elements come first in development, but rather
a. why these are being given so much visual emphasis - they've adopted this "look, this game is pretty, pitch in" tactic for the crowdfund -
and b. more importantly, the visual aesthetics of what they've shown us runs against the original game's mood
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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby shredingskin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:01 pm

Rikitatsu wrote:
shredingskin wrote: We don't know if they have specifically character modelers in the team.

They may be using a third party solution and bring another guy later for all we know.

We know for a fact that they hired an Ex-AM2 character modeler.


Oh that guy, did you miss the october update that the guy job was masturbating ?

Nah really, While I don't like the photoshoped face, I think that if they don't want to show the face it's ok.

Would be a nicer outcome just showing his back or just places, but that's what we've got, I'm not gonna bitch much.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby Rikitatsu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:07 pm

Jibby wrote: Why on earth would they have a random wooden board with score markers next to what is clearly modeled and textured to be a toy just for the sake of it? They wouldn't!

Why on earth are the capsule toys oversized and randomly strewn about on the grass?
See, the wooden board is probably related to a mini-game, but the "screenshot" itself doesn't seem to be previewing a mini-game... It's just some assets thrown together.

Spaghetti wrote:But we don't know how the workload is split. We don't know if they're working on the game full-time while in the prototype phase. We don't know how many other models have needed to be worked on. We do know the game world has taken priority first though, and the results are self-evident.

i remember Yu Suzuki last year or so saying "he hope to show us the updated models for Ryo&Shenhua soon", so they clearly intended to work on it earlier and not relegate it to later stages of the project... Besides, it's the main character... How can it not be a priority when it would be the first thing people would look at when showing the game?

By the way, where does it say that backgrounds have taken priority over character models in the flow chart? I don't see anything in the flow chart that describes character modeling. So how did you infer that?
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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:07 pm

Nahovil wrote:Thanks for bringing it up, but I definitely wasn't making it a question of whether character or world elements come first in development, but rather
a. why these are being given so much visual emphasis - they've adopted this "look, this game is pretty, pitch in" tactic for the crowdfund -
and b. more importantly, the visual aesthetics of what they've shown us runs against the original game's mood

The slide still sheds light on A, at least.

Regarding A.), it's because while visuals are unfinished, it's really one of the few semi-concrete things you can sell the game on right now. New screens have gotten the game the most attention more than, say, the August dev room update where you see the more functional side of the game being developed. Whether finished or not, adding characters to the world and mocking up scenarios like the market fight (which will probably happen in the game) also makes it look more... "real" as a product.

As for B.), that's kind of subjective. While unfinished I recognise a lot of Shenmue in the temple gate shot, down to the purple reflections along the steps. I remember Shenmue II having similar glows in the game world. Deep, high contrast colours are one of the defining features of AM2 games too.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby SheepheadCG » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:08 pm

There could be multiple reasons why Yu hasn't shown off Ryo yet.

Possible reasons: (of course I just made these up lol):

He simply isn't happy with how it is currently. There is huge pressure for it to be true to the dreamcast version of Ryo and he doesn't want to show it until he is happy and sure that the fans will agree.

He is ready, but other characters are not. Maybe he wants to show Ryo and Shenhua together, maybe even in a specific scene.

He could also be holding back the model until they show it off in a video. Yu knows how hyped people are to see Ryo, I can't think of a better ending of a trailer/video than zooming into and revealing the finished model.

Obviously, I don't know the real reason and personally, I am really looking forward to it, but it's really not a big deal IMO. He will show it when he is ready, and currently (for one reason or another) he isn't ready. I am fine with that. There is clearly a priority at work here and showing Ryo just isn't at the top of that list. Creating the underlying systems and mechanics of the game seem to be first and to be honest that makes sense. You CAN'T change a mechanic half way through the Dev cycle, but you CAN change a model or wireframe.

Very happy with the screens and I really think people should wait until we see it in motion before they start complaining. These are work in progress shots for the game and will still a minimum of 1 year to go. A LOT will change in that year.
Take a look at dev blogs of some AAA games to see how drastic things can change up til the last minute. I'm sure you will be surprised.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby shredingskin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:16 pm

I really want to see niao sun more than Ryo, even Lan Di for some reason.

YS take on a vixen (specially since the old model looked like a tv).

But I think they're having problems with faces in general, we haven't seen any frontal face.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:24 pm

Rikitatsu wrote:i remember Yu Suzuki last year or so saying "he hope to show us the updated models for Ryo&Shenhua soon", so they clearly intended to work on it earlier and not relegate it to later stages of the project... Besides, it's the main character... How can it not be a priority when it would be the first thing people would look at when showing the game?

"Soon" is nebulous and doesn't really mean anything specific. Maybe he did plan to show sooner rather than later, and maybe plans changed. Maybe Yu didn't know when he'd be able to show them and made an optimistic statement that didn't pan out. It doesn't actually matter.

But also, especially on a budget, what you need to make the game properly does not always agree with what you need to show a game off. Cory Barlog of God of War fame said time taken to create that highly polished E3 '16 demo took two months away from the development of the full game, and it's always the same when producing those impressive vertical slices for trade shows.

Shenmue III isn't in a similar boat, because God of War has a huge budget and can probably afford a few delays anyway, but if YSnet instead took a couple months to really scrub up the visuals while neglecting many of the crucial things listed in the function testing, then it's going to come out of the game's ass later down development.

Front-loading those important things should ensure you can have sufficient time to refine and tweak as you go, and don't rush/cut/botch them. Graphical elements are comparatively easier and quicker. Do you remember how the graphics for the original Shenmue and Shenmue II improved closer to release? Do you remember how that was basically how games were before the super slick vertical slices became the de-facto way to show off a game? Yu is doing this old school, but also because it's a more sensible development approach overall for the budget.

Rikitatsu wrote:By the way, where does it say that backgrounds have taken priority over character models in the flow chart? I don't see anything in the flow chart that describes character modeling. So how did you infer that?

I inferred it through the bolded. If it's not listed on the workflow like the game world elements are, I have to assume it was not a priority during prototype.

I'm not a game developer but I'd have to assume the bulk of the work on character models and final graphical elements all would come after the Technical Design Document that mandates "this is how big our polygon budget is", "textures must be this resolution for this class of model, and this resolution for these others", etc etc etc, in order to make the models in accordance to what they can and can't do technically with the game.

Again, I don't really know but I'm gleaning information about software development to try getting a fuller picture of what they've been doing and where they are.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby abaww » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:31 pm

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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby Yokosuka » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:35 pm

shredingskin wrote: I really want to see niao sun more than Ryo, even Lan Di for some reason.

YS take on a vixen (specially since the old model looked like a tv).

But I think they're having problems with faces in general, we haven't seen any frontal face.


I think they've problems with pretty much everything so far. Peter was said the team was targeting a trailer for December. Even with basic screenshots, they failed to show something polished. It's now clearer why the PSX was out of the question.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby shredingskin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:41 pm

Well, they HAD a trailer and showed it to the fans so I can't really tell if it's perfectionism, fear of the press, backlash or a PR/marketing thing.

I wouldn't know. Apparently there aren't many UE developers in japan, but at the same time, it's what they say they have already almost cooked... I don't know looking at the temple screen, the texturing doesn't look too good in things that should be easy fix (pretty much tesselation, heightmaps or parallax occlusion can do the work).

I'm just happy that the thing is coming, and I don't know if I would like an update "well, this thing it's harder to make than what I thought" even if it's sincere, I don't know, I'll just wait my doubts out.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby mjq jazz bar » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:52 pm

Spaghetti wrote:
Rikitatsu wrote:i remember Yu Suzuki last year or so saying "he hope to show us the updated models for Ryo&Shenhua soon", so they clearly intended to work on it earlier and not relegate it to later stages of the project... Besides, it's the main character... How can it not be a priority when it would be the first thing people would look at when showing the game?

"Soon" is nebulous and doesn't really mean anything specific. Maybe he did plan to show sooner rather than later, and maybe plans changed. Maybe Yu didn't know when he'd be able to show them and made an optimistic statement that didn't pan out. It doesn't actually matter.

But also, especially on a budget, what you need to make the game properly does not always agree with what you need to show a game off. Cory Barlog of God of War fame said time taken to create that highly polished E3 '16 demo took two months away from the development of the full game, and it's always the same when producing those impressive vertical slices for trade shows.

Shenmue III isn't in a similar boat, because God of War has a huge budget and can probably afford a few delays anyway, but if YSnet instead took a couple months to really scrub up the visuals while neglecting many of the crucial things listed in the function testing, then it's going to come out of the game's ass later down development.

Front-loading those important things should ensure you can have sufficient time to refine and tweak as you go, and don't rush/cut/botch them. Graphical elements are comparatively easier and quicker. Do you remember how the graphics for the original Shenmue and Shenmue II improved closer to release? Do you remember how that was basically how games were before the super slick vertical slices became the de-facto way to show off a game? Yu is doing this old school, but also because it's a more sensible development approach overall for the budget.

Rikitatsu wrote:By the way, where does it say that backgrounds have taken priority over character models in the flow chart? I don't see anything in the flow chart that describes character modeling. So how did you infer that?

I inferred it through the bolded. If it's not listed on the workflow like the game world elements are, I have to assume it was not a priority during prototype.

I'm not a game developer but I'd have to assume the bulk of the work on character models and final graphical elements all would come after the Technical Design Document that mandates "this is how big our polygon budget is", "textures must be this resolution for this class of model, and this resolution for these others", etc etc etc, in order to make the models in accordance to what they can and can't do technically with the game.

Again, I don't really know but I'm gleaning information about software development to try getting a fuller picture of what they've been doing and where they are.
You should definitely be hired to run damage control. You're doing an admirable job. Is there a spot for Deputy Shenmue Ambassador open?
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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:52 pm

shredingskin wrote: Well, they HAD a trailer and showed it to the fans so I can't really tell if it's perfectionism, fear of the press, backlash or a PR/marketing thing.

If the market shot proved anything, it's that they sure aint' afraid of the press! :lol:

But it's gone down well overall, so- they got away with it.

Yu said videos are coming in early 2017, so we may as well just start sitting on our hands again for next month.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby Rikitatsu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:03 pm

I wrote a long ass post but I accidentally deleted it. Let's just say the bulk of it was:

A) Character modeling is independent of game mechanics and background design, so it's not comparable a vertical slice demo. Working on a character model doesn't somehow slow down the development of other game elements, the artist works independently.

B) If they waited till the end of development to start working on 3D character models, it would've been against their agile methodology.


Anyway, I just heard something from someone that crashed my hype to the lowest degree, and I'm pretty thankful for that. It's always best to lower expectations and play it safe.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:08 pm

mjq jazz bar wrote:You should definitely be hired to run damage control. You're doing an admirable job. Is there a spot for Deputy Shenmue Ambassador open?

I can't tell if this is meant in a "nice" way or not. :lol:

But really, when you think about what I said, and I mean genuinely put yourself in 'project management' mode, you know it does make sense.

The needs of game development don't always positively align with the needs of game promotion, and when there's likely no safety net like a big publisher sat next door with a wad of cash if you need another six months, you know what the pragmatic choice is.

We probably should have picked up on it before now, but the workflow chart really does show where the priorities for 2016 have been.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #63: Campaign and Progress Update

Postby shredingskin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Rikitatsu wrote:Anyway, I just heard something from someone that crashed my hype to the lowest degree, and I'm pretty thankful for that. It's always best to lower expectations and play it safe.

What ?
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