Shenmue Dojo

Bluecast wrote: Shenmue seemed like a series that started in a realistic footing but would get more fantastical taking Ryo and the player in a stranger journey over time. Right now that unfinished character looks straight from Street Fighter V. Shenmue however has done some cartoonish characters before.I am sure technical limitations played a factor in the DC era why they might not have been as exaggerated as we see here. I also want to point out that Shenmue Online had some crazy shit. There was a half man half spider thing. There was a man where his arms were so long they dragged on the ground like a gorilla. Sure the game was cancelled but it could be telling of what to expect later in the series.

I'm thinking the exact opposite about the influence of technical limitation on the original charadesign. They purposely exaggerated the faces to make each character more unique and recognizable as they couldn't do much more technically. The Dreamcast coulnd't display as much as polygons than PS2 but did have an excellent RAM for textures. Slight cartoonishing was just a trick.

By the way, who sincerely viewed these characters as "cartoonish" when the game released or was showcased in the issues? These characters were incredibly realistic for their time.

I don't think the story turning points should have any repercussion on the charadesign style art, whatever the fantastic material they might unfold (if it was what you meant).

One of the ingredients that made Shenmue so great is that AM2 put high realism at the service of immersion in order to involve more easily the player in a heavy-storylined game. In this way, progressing becomes more motivating than classic games, with kicking the rare villain' asses a truly satisfying act for instance. If really Shenmue turns to get a slightly-cartoonish style, I think we're going to lost main of its original force.

Yokosuka wrote: By the way, who sincerely viewed these characters as "cartoonish" when the game released or was showcased in the issues? These characters were incredibly realistic for their time.

...

If really Shenmue turns to get a slightly-cartoonish style, I think we're going to lost main of its original force.

"Cartoonish" is your choice of words and it has a certain cache (especially in America) as being childish or unrealistic... but clearly the characters have always had a stylized, illustrated appearance. It's also typical in Japanese media like anime and manga to have a cast of characters with the main characters somewhat more realistic and comic relief characters somewhat more exaggerated. There were attempts at photorealism in games of the DC era, for example Tom Clancy games.

I know you dismissed my collection of images but please, describe to us the photorealism in the representation of Cool Z and how this new character is a change from that. Also, someone joked (I hope) about me "fat shaming" Cool Z but I am speaking specifically about the design and proportions of his face. Or Akio Enoki, Liang Yan, Langxun Chong, etc. as featured in the previous image.

Spaghetti wrote:

killthesagabeforeitkillsu wrote: I don't see why people shouldn't expect passport Ryo... after all just a few months ago they photoshoped Ryo's DC face into a screenshot, implying they were still going for that look.

Ryo's in-game model is not passport Ryo, though.

As you can see in the video I posted, they literally introduced Ryo for the first time by actually morphing from a Miyawaki design to the in-game model. That's arguably always been their approach to the characters in-game. Passport Ryo is a Dreamcast technical showcase.

The morphing doesn't prove that the design went straight from Miyawakis 2D-drawings to the in-game characters and it clearly didn't. Ofcourse his drawings are important as the first version of a character.

The point is that the in-game models were not meant to replicate those drawings. As Yokosuka pointed out,
the 3D CGI images were the targets for the in-game models. In-game Ryo is a low-poly version of this:

and the passport-models are simply more detailed models with the same target.

It's pretty clear that the design process for the main characters was something like this:
Miyawaki makes concept drawings of a character, then a 3D/CGI-model is made based on this concept but much more realistic, detailed, and different from Miyawakis "comic-book" style, although still stylized. For some characters clay busts are also made.

Then the actual model used in the game is made to look like the CGI image but they obviously can't fully replicate it in real time.

So, to take Joy as an example:

Original concept drawing:


CGI model:


In-game model:


Thanks to great modeling and texturing, the in-game model manages to capture the essence of the CGI image although less detailed.

Centrale wrote:

Yokosuka wrote: By the way, who sincerely viewed these characters as "cartoonish" when the game released or was showcased in the issues? These characters were incredibly realistic for their time.

...

If really Shenmue turns to get a slightly-cartoonish style, I think we're going to lost main of its original force.

"Cartoonish" is your choice of words and it has a certain cache (especially in America) as being childish or unrealistic... but clearly the characters have always had a stylized, illustrated appearance. It's also typical in Japanese media like anime and manga to have a cast of characters with the main characters somewhat more realistic and comic relief characters somewhat more exaggerated. There were attempts at photorealism in games of the DC era, for example Tom Clancy games.

I know you dismissed my collection of images but please, describe to us the photorealism in the representation of Cool Z and how this new character is a change from that. Also, someone joked (I hope) about me "fat shaming" Cool Z but I am speaking specifically about the design and proportions of his face. Or Akio Enoki, Liang Yan, Langxun Chong, etc. as featured in the previous image.

I'm not saying Shenmue was 100% photorealistic. You're totally right by saying it was stylized at some point (except this character lol: https://i.imgur.com/RKMLLEh.jpg ). It's exactly the same with Virtua Fighter 5 CGI characters whom the eyes are slightly bigger than normal.

My view is that they don't need to push that far in stylization now that the context and technologies have evolved. They should better target the feeling we got when Shenmue released. Something like Yakuza, Project Zero, Shenmue CGI art or any valuable face art from the PS3/Xbox 360 era if matching Yakuza 6 level is too high for the YSnet budget.

I'm trying but I'm still unable to be fully pleased of what I'm seeing here.

When you get information from Yu and the producer himself about Shenmue related content appearing at a gaming event, and it turns out not to happen, you learn the hard way not to take anyone's word about when or where footage of this game will appear. Plans change, and it can be upsetting. Frustrating even. At the end of the day everyone is entitled to their opinion. But at the same time, everyone should realise this is going to come out at some stage, and that will be a glorious time, so until then, all i can ask is to try and see positives whenever you can, and also try to remain patient. This is a long process, and none of us are going anywhere.

As for the video, i just shrugged my shoulders. It is what it is, and there are positives there. As the person said, they were testing for polygon dents and movements. Thats what i want from them. Thorough testing of all movement variations. He wont be doing jumping jacks in the game for gods sake. I thought it was great, watching the characters various muscle elements flex and expand with the relevant movements. Theres going to be fighting in this after all. As for the look, hes just a made up skeleton with a prototype shell essentially. There will be lots more detail added so im not concerned about that. His clothes looked cool too, as Switch pointed out in his update.

One thing to think/hope for is that since a delay announcement is inevitable now, they will need to counter that announcement with something to give us some positivity along with it, so a trailer may be included then. Perhaps Gio told them that was a better plan, or perhaps he wanted Shenmue at E3 and YSNET said no. Either way, im over E3 now, and looking forward to what the summer has in store overall for Shenmue.
As i always resort back to... one day we will finish Shenmue 3, and be praying to go back to the exciting times of monthly updates when we didnt have a clue what was coming. Its hard in life to stop and take stock of the now, but try to with the Shenmue 3 development process, because, one day in the blink of an eye, it will all be over and life will be very different.

I'm grateful for anything they give us. Playing Shenmue 3 is my biggest dream.

Yokosuka wrote:
I'm not saying Shenmue was 100% photorealistic. You're totally right by saying it was stylized at some point (except this character lol: https://i.imgur.com/RKMLLEh.jpg ).

Oh my gosh, I never saw that character. Yikes. Where was she?

Yokosuka wrote:
I'm trying but I'm still unable to be fully pleased of what I'm seeing here.

I can appreciate your perspective. I think they are going to put a lot of effort into getting the main characters as perfect as possible and as smooth of a transition from 2 to 3 as possible. There will inevitably be some changes and we should try to allow them some artistic license. At the same time if they go completely off the rails it's understandable that fans should express their criticisms.

I speculate that they chose to show this character now so as to make it more of an exciting event when they show the main characters later on.

This character looks like he popped straight outta Baki The Grappler. Beefcake? Check. Creepy Smile? Check. Thick Lips? Check.

It's all there.

Bluecast please cool it with the blue text it is blinding. Seriously.

Anyways, why do so many fans think that just because it's Yu's vision to eventually put in a half man half spider into Shenmue that this, in any way, means it would be a good decision? Just because that's the vision doesn't make it good. It was the vision of George Lucas to make the prequels and they still sucked no matter what creativity he put in there. You can argue easily that this was George's idea all along for the prequels but just because that's how he planned it doesn't mean people aren't allowed to critique. Honestly, your argument just makes you look like you're kissing Yu's ass and have no agency on your own. Just because having a half man half spider in the series was the plan all along doesn't mean it's actually good decision. Those are two totally separate issues and in any case, isn't even much of a rebuttal. Considering the amount of times it has come up on these boards over the years, it never ceases to stop being an awful argument and you and others should stop using it.

By your own argument you would be absolutely fine no matter what they did because it'd fit Yu's vision. In no way is it a good, much less respectful point. You just look like someone who has low standards for the series who is willing to accept any and every choice and decision.

No offense.

No use getting upset about it? So we should accept any change the series has? Just because that's the artistic vision? That's bullshit.

Spaghetti wrote:They've made the best, and ultimately most aesthetically pleasing choice in a difficult situation.

The most aesthetically pleasing choice is a judgement of value and something we can't know until we get the reaction of people (and we won't have the reaction to another style, so it's just theorising). Even then most people here aren't over the moon with it, and it's not from a Shenmue purist perspective (at least in my case), if I saw that model in another game I would raise an eyebrow (let's say we're trying to give it some leniency considering it's Shenmue). And it's not about having ultra hyperealistic skinpores with procedural sweat, if you look at the model it's not a simple model, it's about the aesthetic we have been thinking for years, most people would prefer the passport model that's technically less impressive.

Most people really hated the aesthetic of SFIV, and while they tried to improve on SFV some people still dislike it.

Maybe if the game has another vibe than the originals, a more cartoony approach would be more in touch and make sense.

Maybe it's a matter of getting accostumed to, maybe it's a matter of taste, but I don't know if most people like this kind of approach (thinking at another fighting game, it reminds me of KOF14, that most people didn't like, and that had a real technical difficulty because the other games were 2D, and animating all that shit is really painstaking).

Himuro wrote:No offense.

If sticking these two words on the end of your post makes it okay to talk down to someone, then just put them in your signature and save yourself some time.

Some people defend Yu's vision for Shenmue because that's what they've waited 16 years for. You might have been content with a sequel by someone else so long as it was a good game and you got an ending, but I think most fans have been holding out for the ending, and that can only be defined by Yu Suzuki. It very well might turn out to be something you enjoy less than you expected, but nonetheless, that's the story. That's Shenmue 3. If you wanted someone else's version of it that met your own specifications, there was always fan fic.