Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Spaghetti » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:10 pm

Basically the purpose of this thread is to clean up the other thread about the models a little and prevent an endless back and forth about tweaks shitting up the discussion in there.

So, post 'em if you got 'em.

Image

Nothing too special. Used the existing parts on the model and made a few minor adjustments. I think it looks respectable enough for a quick dick around in Photoshop, and that the new model itself is largely on-track for getting where it needs to be.
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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Shenmue_Trilogy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:24 pm

Spaghetti wrote:
Also, that image you posted is from Shenmue II, although it's largely the same model so... semantics. The image I based my changes on is literally a promo image of the original Ryo model in Shenmue, so I don't think I need a low-res reminder...


You are right its from Shenmue 2.
Even you took a promo image you can see clearly see the differences which makes overall IMO a huge difference in race and appearance:

Hairline
Nosetip and side of the nose which looks on shenmue 3 ryo more flat
Upper nosebridge (flater on shanmue 1 ryo)
Jaw
Original Ryo has no eyebags and less shadow around the eyes
upperlip is thiner than underlip

Image

Even my Ryo still need several tweeks like the chin, nose..but his appearance is IMO more closer to an asian guy/ryo ingame model than indian:

Image
Image
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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Spaghetti » Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:02 pm

Here's where you're maybe missing the point of me using that promo image as a reference; the goal is not a total recreation because, well, that model is nearly 20 years old and had significant geometry, polycount, and lighting restrictions to deal with, even for a promo image.

The goal, which I believe is the same one YSnet has in using that model as their base, is to be evocative of the look but not 100% slavishly dedicated to replicating it for better or worse.

Complaints, for example, about his eyes are kind of redundant when you consider that 3D graphics capability has gotten to the point where modellers can make Ryo's eyes look like they would if actually sitting inside an eye socket (causing the "bags", or more accurately the skin fold of the lower eyelid), and lighting can account for the fact eyes are recessed further back than the brow and the cheekbone, and would cast a natural shadow as a result.

It's the same with Ryo's lips. Analysing down to which lip is thicker is a kind of busted metric when now the modeller can properly convey the way lips stick out and then tilt back in to meet. It's not like 20 years ago when a modeller or texture artist had to disguise fairly simple geometry as an actual mouth. The difference is genuinely minuscule anyway.

Going on about what looks Asian and not Asian is also kind of redundant considering Ryo has a few non-Asian traits in most iterations of his design, like the notable lack of the monolid eye (basically, no crease at the top of the eye). Now I made sure to say most, because Ryo's in-game model does have a monolid, though this would have been a modelling constraint because back then it would have been impossible to properly model an eye crease.

The point is, just because something may make the character "more Asian", that's not necessarily in-keeping with the character design (especially if we're talking eyes). Kazuma Kiryu doesn't have the monolid eye, while Akira from VF does. The common factor? Ryo, Kiryu, and Akira are all Asian characters, but two are lacking a distinctive Asian characteristic. Are you catching my drift here?

I'm not sure your edit does much to make Ryo look particularly more Asian either. It's just... flattened out the details. Weirdly enough I see a passing resemblance to Rick Astley in your edit. It's odd, I know. Rick Astley seems to have sort of monolid-looking eyes now that I think about it. He's not Asian... or is he? Fun fact: Never Gonna Give You Up was released in 1987, the same year as Shenmue III is set, so... *X-Files theme plays*

But seriously, the issue with the new Ryo model is proportional. It has all of Ryo's features, but the scale and head shape are a bit out of whack.

Here's the upper half of the new model's head.

Image

That's Ryo's hairline. That's definitely his eyebrows, and those are his eyes, almond-shaped and lacking the monolid.

This is the lower half.

Image

Ryo's frowny-ass mouth (they've even repeated the trick from the old models of having the top lip be slightly darker, for added contrast), bandage, and kinda non-distinctive nose (thankfully not as super-thin as the Passport nose).

Those are Ryo's facial features. The ones that matter anyway. You're not gonna go "what about his chin" when it's not really very distinctive and is really... just a chin.

Put it all together and... it's not quite right. It's like YSnet has the ingredients but didn't follow the recipe exactly. But the wholesale changes/removal of detail you're suggesting are not the answer.

Unless we want to play as Ryo Astley.

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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby O Rei do Frango Assado » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:13 am

OK, I'll be the pedant here...
There's no such thing as Ryo looking more Indian than Asian, as Indians are Asian. Unless you're talking about American Indians?

Anyway, the tweaks I've been seeing show that Ryo's new face, as seen in this press release, is indeed very close to the Ryo we know, and that only the hair and the shitty lighting (lack of shadows etc.) are responsible for, somehow, making it look really ugly and kind of off.

I'm pretty optimistic that everyone we'll be quite happy once we see Ryo in videos, just a few days from now.

As for Shenhua... Well, she definitely seems like she needs a lot more work, but let's wait too.

Having said that, I'm still convinced that we'll likely see different character models at Gamescom, because:
A) It's really odd for them to unveil the new models in this fashion, in a shitty, hastily-done photoshop pic, where they simply got Ryo and Shenhua and pasted them on top of a background screenshot, for a publishing partnership press release. I mean, Gamescom is just around the corner, it makes no sense at all not to save the unveiling of the most recent models for Gamescom.
Not only that, but the KS update regarding the Deep Silver news does not even make any mention of the new models, which would obviously be very big news for fans.

B) Just a couple of months ago, Ysnet said: "Hey, everyone, good news! We got your feedback regarding the logo, so we've decided to use the same font as the first two games". And now we get this logo? My theory is simple: the material that Deep Silver used for this press release poster is old and predates the June update, where they said they'd be going back to the old logo. So, if they're using an old, experimental logo, which will no longer be used, it makes sense that the character models they're using are also outdated.

So, I really do believe that we'll still get lots of pleasant surprises at Gamescom.

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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Rikitatsu » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:47 am

Spaghetti wrote:
Image

Nothing too special. Used the existing parts on the model and made a few minor adjustments. I think it looks respectable enough for a quick dick around in Photoshop, and that the new model itself is largely on-track for getting where it needs to be.

Image

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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Tortu_genial » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:48 am

Good tweak Spaghetti :)
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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Shenmue_Legend » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:57 am

O Rei do Frango Assado wrote: OK, I'll be the pedant here...
There's no such thing as Ryo looking more Indian than Asian, as Indians are Asian. Unless you're talking about American Indians?

Anyway, the tweaks I've been seeing show that Ryo's new face, as seen in this press release, is indeed very close to the Ryo we know, and that only the hair and the shitty lighting (lack of shadows etc.) are responsible for, somehow, making it look really ugly and kind of off.

I'm pretty optimistic that everyone we'll be quite happy once we see Ryo in videos, just a few days from now.

As for Shenhua... Well, she definitely seems like she needs a lot more work, but let's wait too.

Having said that, I'm still convinced that we'll likely see different character models at Gamescom, because:
A) It's really odd for them to unveil the new models in this fashion, in a shitty, hastily-done photoshop pic, where they simply got Ryo and Shenhua and pasted them on top of a background screenshot, for a publishing partnership press release. I mean, Gamescom is just around the corner, it makes no sense at all not to save the unveiling of the most recent models for Gamescom.
Not only that, but the KS update regarding the Deep Silver news does not even make any mention of the new models, which would obviously be very big news for fans.

B) Just a couple of months ago, Ysnet said: "Hey, everyone, good news! We got your feedback regarding the logo, so we've decided to use the same font as the first two games". And now we get this logo? My theory is simple: the material that Deep Silver used for this press release poster is old and predates the June update, where they said they'd be going back to the old logo. So, if they're using an old, experimental logo, which will no longer be used, it makes sense that the character models they're using are also outdated.

So, I really do believe that we'll still get lots of pleasant surprises at Gamescom.


But Japanese are a different kind of Asian. They look way different than Indians. However I disagree with this Ryo looking Indian, I think he looks filipino. Anyway, I hope they make Ryo look like (I've said this many times I know) the SO Ryo. This is the ideal way he should look. I hope Yu Suzuki knows this. If not, then someone must tell him.
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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Yokosuka » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:51 am

I do like the point of Hazuki00.

YS Net is able to model the He-Man boss to millimeter perfection (cf. look at his artwork) but would they miserably fail to make correctly the A-rank main character of the franchise? Of course not. Finally, only the art direction remains questionable.
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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Shenmue_Trilogy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:27 am

Spaghetti wrote:Complaints, for example, about his eyes are kind of redundant when you consider that 3D graphics capability has gotten to the point where modellers can make Ryo's eyes look like they would if actually sitting inside an eye socket
(causing the "bags", or more accurately the skin fold of the lower eyelid)


You can still make Ryo's eyes look like they would if actually sitting inside an eye socket but without loosing the asian look (Yakuza!). Ryo is not a guy with the typical japanese features but you can definitly see that he is asian not indian or fillipino. So its is a question of (bad) design and not "3D graphics capability".
Also in Dreamcast era it would possible use skin fold of the lower eyelid for characters by using textures. For exmaple chai: (who do not look chinese to me)

Image

..but they didn't use a fold of the lower eyelid on Ryo. Why? Because most of japanese/korean/chinese does not have these lower eyelid (or much smaller/less significant) fold in case the face is in a neutral position: (I am not refering to the eyebags!):

Image

The lower eye lid does not stand out that strong. Also the transition between the lower eyelid and the skin is more smoth compared to western or people from india.

The point is, just because something may make the character "more Asian", that's not necessarily in-keeping with the character design


Its the combination of missing some of the significant Ryos face features and don't fit the race. Original Ryo is not the typical asian guy (as you mentioned) but he still looks on the picture and your shenmue 1 promo pic more asian compared to shenmue 3 ryo.
Its not enough splitting ryos face in only two parts. You need to take a closer look on his face features to see why they don't fit from his original face:

Some of these ryos shenmue 1,2 and 3 features which should be stay the same like the nose, eyes, skin or forehead does not look the same:

1. Forehead (Hairline): Looks on original Ryo more smother and wider.

Image

2. Nose: cleary difference form of the nose trils:
Image

3. Lips: Small detail but the upperlip is thiner:
Image

4. Jaw: Different jawline but this could be also due to lower poly from the dreamcast version.

Image

Lets move to the main reason why ryo does not look asian ot at least mixed:

1. Skin color fits more of an indian/fillipino guy.
2. The eyes:

Image

I hope you can clearly see the difference? ;) As mentioned above the asian/japanese eyes have rarely a lower eye lid fold and more smother transition to the lower lid. Also the lower lid does not stand out this strong on asian eyes. When you compare my Ryo (or the promo Ryo from your pic) you will see that his upper eye lid fold is much lower compared to shenmue 3.
When we take a closer look at the people from india or pakistan you will see many of these features:

Image

- lower eye lid stands more out
- fold of the lower eyelid
- and most important dark circles around and under the eyes which are more common in india compared to the western world or asia.

The form of the shenmue 3 ryos eyes does indeed look more asian but overall they don't look asian (or like ryos eyes) to me because of the combination above.
Last edited by Shenmue_Trilogy on Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Spaghetti » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:30 am

I like how you seriously responded to the written equivalent of a Rick Roll.
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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Shenmue_Trilogy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:45 am

Well, I thought we can have a interesting discussion but after I have pointed out the differences in detail which even a blind man can see on the screenshots it looks like you have lost the desire to discuss. What a shame :( Lets move on and wait how the final Ryo will look like.
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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Spaghetti » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:56 am

Nothing about this was going to be an interesting discussion. It'd be another circular crapfest that doesn't matter anyway considering YSnet will do what they will independently of either of us and our edits.

This thread is literally just to keep that shit out of the other one, and I guess maybe to collect the edits in one place. If we get enough we can make a collage. Or maybe I can just print them out and burn them in a giant act of catharsis when Shenmue III releases.

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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby KidMarine » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:08 am

Spaghetti's edit is by far the best I've seen by a factor of about a thousand, and it's only a few minor modifications.

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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Shenmue_Trilogy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:09 am

It'd be another circular crapfest that doesn't matter anyway considering YSnet


So why not stop discussion about everything which is related to Shenmue 3....I think there is nothing wrong to discuss in detail about the shenmue 3 design. This is still kcikstarter project in which you have invested your money.

This thread is literally just to keep that shit out of the other one, and I guess maybe to collect the edits in one place. If we get enough we can make a collage. Or maybe I can just print them out and burn them in a giant act of catharsis when Shenmue III releases.


crapfest, shit...I have no idea why you now moving offtopic using some "nice" words. AFAIK some users don't have this privalege here. You and me made our standpoint clear. We could send our imporvements/arguments to Ys team even without the hope to change something or get a response.
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Re: Fan-Edits & Tweaks of New Images Thread

Postby Your Boy Leroy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:21 am

I was never a huge fan of the in-game model for Ryo anyway, even when I first played the original game way-back-when. As a kid, I always wanted the CG-model.

That being said, I think Spaghetti's alterations to the current model are by far the best that have been done. It really goes to show just how little additional work needs to be done since the basic structure is there. It really just looks like a modern update to the original in-game Dreamcast model.

I don't think the whole point of this was to see who's better at what here, but rather to highlight the direction and progress that the developers are making at this time. Doesn't really matter who's better anyway, since it's ultimately not our vision.

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