New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentation

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby swimingdeer » Mon May 21, 2018 6:06 pm

I think Ys net is mostly trying to have the models "feel" like they are the characters,
more than making them "look" like they appeared in SH1&2 or promotional materials/renders.

As long as Ryo's model bring to mind the same feeling as Ryo is meant to bring, it's good.
(Same goes for Shenhua or any returning charachter.)

I have to admit that, for now, only the promo image for Magic had me feel like Shenhua was true to herself.
For Ryo, all of the models since gamecom felt like him, albeit in different fashion.

At this point, I'm not focusing on the models, that, we have to admit, is a really visible aspect of the game,
but is also one of the lesser part of the complete picture, compared to interface narrative and interactive content.

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Centrale » Mon May 21, 2018 6:10 pm

BalHan wrote: Then what is the end they’re trying to achieve with the models if there isn’t a vision of what the character has to look like? Why were people unhappy with the models of Ryo and Shenhua they showed at E3 a few years ago? Because they didn’t look like Ryo and Shenhua. No other reason.

Do you want them to make further improvements on the current models? If so, then to what end? The goal surely has to be to create models that look like the Dreamcast models.


Not really. The goal/vision is whatever YsNet, and specifically Yu Suzuki settle on. If you think about it, in Yu Suzuki's career he has always sought to get the most out of the available technology. He's not going to be striving to emulate the look of the Dreamcast era Shenmue, which was surely a result of pushing that technology as hard as it could be pushed for its time, when he now has 2018 tech to work with.

This matter of fan opinions has been and will continue to be endless, because there is no consensus among all the fans. You might be able to scrabble together your little group of friends who have an agreement, and someone else's little group of friends has an agreement about what the characters "should" look like. But there are thousands of fans and as many opinions. That's why it's a good thing that YsNet is not trying to design this game by committee. Neither were Shenmue I and II designed as the result of fan input. You can get as worked up about it as you'd like, but in the end it's only to the detriment of your own enjoyment and possibly those around you.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Jibby » Mon May 21, 2018 6:14 pm

BalHan wrote:They can’t reasonably hit? In this day and age with UE4 at their disposal?


You hit the nail on the head. They can't make it look like Dreamcast Ryo because they're using far more advanced technology.

The model we've seen already looks like Ryo. It matches Ryo's proportions and facial features almost exactly, that's already been proven with that pic that was posted multiple times in this thread. It just doesn't look like Dreamcast Ryo because Shenmue III isn't a Dreamcast game.

I think that's where a lot of the complaints about Ryo's current model stem from. Not from the fact that it doesn't look like the character Ryo, but the fact that is doesn't look like Ryo as rendered on 20 year old hardware. That's something people are just going to have to accept I feel.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Riku Rose » Mon May 21, 2018 6:15 pm

I know I made a joke about how the models keep changing but I find it hard too see how you people can care so much when it’s changing constantly. Honestly I think that they’ve been silly to show some stuff in teasers, trailers or screenshots when it looks so rough but they’ve shown that they’re going to keep changing it. Any other game if a model looks weird in a trailer it’s probably going to look weird when it’s released but it’s been clear for awhile now that nothing is final until the game is shipped.

All people seem to do is complain about a model or face for 3 months then complain about the new one when that’s shown. I can understand saying this is bad marketing constantly showing rough footage and I’d argue every time they do this they’re hurting potential sales (See Mass Effect Andromina). But I’m just at the point where I don’t care as I’ve got the game preordered and we most likely won’t see the final models until reviewers post footage up for their video reviews at this point.

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby mjq jazz bar » Mon May 21, 2018 6:27 pm

I don’t think any of this is affecting sales. Most people aren’t engaged enough to live or die by some tiny bits of footage for a game they know nothing about. I doubt most of the Lockstarter backers have even seen this stuff considering it hasn’t been released officially.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Riku Rose » Mon May 21, 2018 7:03 pm

^After the Gamescom trailer last year the main takeaway people had was that the faces looked awful. The general public won’t look into stuff as much as people here do and don’t know it’s a work in progress. If I wasn’t a Shenmue fan and saw that trailer I would probably think. “That’s not for me.” And never watch another trailer or care about it again, it did nothing to entice people and just put people off. The Kickstarter has 70k backers and the trailer was viewed almost a million times on YouTube alone (not counting Facebook/Twitter). That means over 9 out of 10 people who viewed it are people you’re trying to sell the game to, and people expect that a trailer will reflect what they will buy in some way. Most people won’t look at it and think. “I bet they fix the faces by release.”

That’s why I still don’t understand what they’re doing here by constantly showing this stuff when it’s not ready to be shown. People say that they need to show something as people are getting angry but they really don’t, gamers will complain but buy it in the end if it looks good. We never saw anything of Final Fantasy XV for about 7 years after it was announced (which people complained about) and they only started showing parts of the game close to release and it sold around 5 millions copies on day one as they made the product look good and only showed stuff that was ready to be shown, it’ll be the same with Kingdom Hearts 3. This on the other hand I don’t think is looking good.

I think this game needs a good trailer that entices people and needs it before the 1&2 release to get people interested in the series. Every time they show unexciting footage like this it just means there will be more people that won’t be looking at the next thing they release showing off the game which leads to less interest.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby dietsoap » Mon May 21, 2018 7:56 pm

Riku Rose wrote: I know I made a joke about how the models keep changing but I find it hard too see how you people can care so much when it’s changing constantly.

Well, we don't exactly have much else to talk about regarding S3. :P
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Spaghetti » Tue May 22, 2018 9:04 am

BalHan wrote:Surely you’ll take this back at some point. Then what is the end they’re trying to achieve with the models if there isn’t a vision of what the character has to look like? Why were people unhappy with the models of Ryo and Shenhua they showed at E3 a few years ago? Because they didn’t look like Ryo and Shenhua. No other reason.

Do you want them to make further improvements on the current models? If so, then to what end? The goal surely has to be to create models that look like the Dreamcast models.

It’s like when you’ve been watching a show for years and one day a new actor plays a role that was played by someone else for years. No, no, no. We want the same actor! It’s no longer the same.

They can’t reasonably hit? In this day and age with UE4 at their disposal? I think we can safely assume they can create models that resembles models from previous games. I mean devs have done pretty well with other remakes.

I think you've missed the point in my post.

It's no longer the same, because it isn't. It's 20 years later, and pointing to old models as the peak of what Ys Net can achieve is... pointless. There's no other way of putting it now, that composite shot has been posted enough times that it should be obvious tolerance for changes and improvements is only going to be accepted so far when certain people are so, so married to the notion of "Dreamcast model or bust".

swimingdeer wrote: I think Ys net is mostly trying to have the models "feel" like they are the characters,
more than making them "look" like they appeared in SH1&2 or promotional materials/renders.


Centrale wrote:This matter of fan opinions has been and will continue to be endless, because there is no consensus among all the fans. You might be able to scrabble together your little group of friends who have an agreement, and someone else's little group of friends has an agreement about what the characters "should" look like. But there are thousands of fans and as many opinions. That's why it's a good thing that YsNet is not trying to design this game by committee. Neither were Shenmue I and II designed as the result of fan input. You can get as worked up about it as you'd like, but in the end it's only to the detriment of your own enjoyment and possibly those around you.


Jibby wrote:You hit the nail on the head. They can't make it look like Dreamcast Ryo because they're using far more advanced technology.

The model we've seen already looks like Ryo. It matches Ryo's proportions and facial features almost exactly, that's already been proven with that pic that was posted multiple times in this thread. It just doesn't look like Dreamcast Ryo because Shenmue III isn't a Dreamcast game.

I think that's where a lot of the complaints about Ryo's current model stem from. Not from the fact that it doesn't look like the character Ryo, but the fact that is doesn't look like Ryo as rendered on 20 year old hardware. That's something people are just going to have to accept I feel.

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby ShenmueHDYEAH » Tue May 22, 2018 10:10 am

Why can't they just make him look like this? Image

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby BalHan » Tue May 22, 2018 11:31 am

I think you've missed the point in my post.

It's no longer the same, because it isn't. It's 20 years later, and pointing to old models as the peak of what Ys Net can achieve is... pointless. There's no other way of putting it now, that composite shot has been posted enough times that it should be obvious tolerance for changes and improvements is only going to be accepted so far when certain people are so, so married to the notion of "Dreamcast model or bust".


Your argument could have been even better. You could have brought up the sega Saturn models and how they weren’t the same in the Dreamcast games because advances had been made in technology and so the models needed to be recreated for a more advanced console and therefore this whole ‘looks like’ argument is redundant.

Here’s my point, I’ve become so accustomed to seeing particular character models look a particular way that they’ve become recognisable.

This, I believe, is applicable for all; no one wants to see character models that bear no resemblance whatsoever to the Dreamcast models. The latest S3 character model of Ryo has a closer resemblance than the first S3 character model they showed a few years ago and that is the subconscious reason why, I believe, people are happier with images of the latest models.

If you read comments of YouTube videos pertaining S3, there’s clearly a grounswell of opinion from fans that a more recognisable Ryo is desired.

However, after mulling it over I have come to revise my standpoint somewhat. I was remiss to not take into consideration the financial constraints which have hamstrung the devs involved in the making of S3.

It is naive to hope for triple A, the-last-of-us-2 level graphics and realism. Complaints about S3 looking cartooney have got to stop. With a limited budget, and an open-world game being hoped for, the budget has to be used accordingly.

There’s so much more to the game than the character models looking like how they’re supposed to.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Spaghetti » Tue May 22, 2018 11:46 am

BalHan wrote:Your argument could have been even better.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm glad you're revising your stance some at least. Taking a more open minded approach to changes is better for everybody.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby punkmanced » Tue May 22, 2018 6:35 pm

WIP or not, they could have saved themselves the [massive] headache by just revamping the Passport models.

Old fans would have been happy since those are essentially the ones they grew up with, while new fans… still wouldn’t give a crap.

Problem solved, and money saved.

But noooo, Ryo and Shenhua just had to get all fancy by taking repeated Guilin-Seoul flights for some plastic surgery. To top it off, those two are even causing production delays now (probably rehab).

Compared to this one, Shenmue 4 is going to be a breeze, development-wise, if it ever gets made.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby swimingdeer » Tue May 22, 2018 6:57 pm

Wasn't it said that the dreamcast models were not the one they originally wanted ?

I guess that the argument is really about liking the legacy models or/and new models,
where the new models are meant to be closer to the original vision and concept.

I remember reading that Yu Suzuki said that
they would take the SH1&2 models into account while designing the new ones.
I think that the people that are so adamant about the legacy models should already be grateful,
that they aren't ignoring the dreamcast models altogether.


Also, it is possible that the passport or promotional models look awful with most angles or expressions.
So, instead of using models that match some pictures,
Ys net may naturally choose to opt for models that look fine all along the game.

We really need to see the big picture here.
We did not wait years to be unsettled by petty details.
(Because, as petty details go, I am unsettled by Shenhua with earrings, myself.)
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby BalHan » Tue May 22, 2018 7:03 pm

punkmanced wrote: WIP or not, they could have saved themselves the [massive] headache by just revamping the Passport models.

Old fans would have been happy since those are essentially the ones they grew up with, while new fans… still wouldn’t give a crap.

Problem solved, and money saved.

But noooo, Ryo and Shenhua just had to get all fancy by taking repeated Guilin-Seoul flights for some plastic surgery. To top it off, those two are even causing production delays now (probably rehab).

Compared to this one, Shenmue 4 is going to be a breeze, development-wise, if it ever gets made.


I don't think the latest models of Ryo and Shenhua that we've seen will be the final models used. They're still polishing the game for release next year so expect further images of S3 character models before the release. Either way I think we've got to approach S3 with low expectations.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Spaghetti » Tue May 22, 2018 8:26 pm

swimingdeer wrote:Also, it is possible that the passport or promotional models look awful with most angles or expressions.
So, instead of using models that match some pictures,
Ys net may naturally choose to opt for models that look fine all along the game.

It's not so much they look bad from most angles, but they look their age, basically.

There are examples of the Passport model pulled into UE4 out there, and there's no real getting away from the fact they still look like something that leapt out of a much older game. Ryo has a lot of angular and harsh features, that almost look carved into the model because of the rudimentary geometry. I'm sure it could be fitted with a modern facial animation rig, but the way the features were created on that old Passport model might limit how well expressions look or are realised.

And then we get into the problem that obviously those models are going to have to be touched up, and as that Gamescom/Shenmue II Ryo composite image shows us (don't worry I'm not gonna post it for the millionth time this thread), there are limits at where people who are married to the Dreamcast look are going to accept genuine improvements.

To top it all off - how do you recreate that Passport model look at scale for other characters, when it was dictated less by artistic intent and more by technical limitation?

I would love to peer into that alternate universe where Ys Net really did capitulate to the "Passport or bust" crowd. There would still be complaining, of that much I'm sure. Grass is always greener, etc etc etc.
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