New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentation

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby ShenmueHDYEAH » Wed May 23, 2018 3:18 pm

Spaghetti wrote:
ShenmueHDYEAH wrote:It was the lighting but even in the shot that Jibby posted, he still looks great. You just need to ask two questions when it comes to the character model of Ryo. 1) How badass/cool does he look (which may sound weird, but it fits with the rest of Ryo's features. E.g. the spiky hair, his clothing)? 2) Does he look Ryo-like?

Now when I see the Shenmue III Ryo, it does not give the impression that he is a fighter/martial artist. To be honest, he looks more like a tourist (with Shenhua being his tour guide!).

But it has the same problem even in different lighting conditions, that part was exactly in my post.

See:

Image

Same scrunchface as in Jibby's shot. Really highlights how unusually narrow his face is too, now that it comes to it.

I don't really get the rest of your criteria. It's a bit funny calling him a tourist when he basically is and one of the core pillars of the story is Ryo exploring a foreign land. Same with the fighter part, Ryo isn't meant to be intimidating and that's 99% of why so many street punks think they can take him.

--------------

Anyway, sort of back on topic, I had a shot working on the image Jibby posted above (trying to prove the theory a few tweaks really tie the model together):

Image

Apart from the minor proportional changes, I'm starting to think that little bit of contouring on Ryo's cheek makes a nice difference, and helps break up that cheekbone/jaw space that makes his head look a little too big for his face.


Maybe not absolutely intimidating, but not exactly baby faced either (Shenmue III Ryo basically). He should have that Akira Yuki look to him (i.e. cool looking martial artist but not big, hulking guy type of intimidating). Regarding the narrowness of his face, it's roughly the same as every other Ryo model so that should not be a negative.

If you're concerned about the scrunchness of his face, that can be fixed, And you see, that's the best part about the Shenmue Online Ryo. It can easily be copy and pasted on to next-gen hardware and then whatever shortcomings it has (tbh, I still don't see anything wrong with it!), they just have to adjust them slightly.

Nice tweek by the way!
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Spaghetti » Wed May 23, 2018 4:30 pm

I'm going to break this post up a bit if that's okay.

ShenmueHDYEAH wrote:Maybe not absolutely intimidating, but not exactly baby faced either (Shenmue III Ryo basically). He should have that Akira Yuki look to him (i.e. cool looking martial artist but not big, hulking guy type of intimidating).

I'm not sure your vision of Ryo quite matches up with how he's portrayed in the game though. Ryo's youth comes up a lot in the series from all kinds of characters, constantly being called boy, schoolboy, etc. Even Ren, who is only marginally older than Ryo, brings it up.

While I agree he's maybe a touch too baby faced as it is right now (and why a bit of cheek contouring can really help there), the Online CG and Passport models have always looked too lean and betray the fact he's meant to be a young looking character.

ShenmueHDYEAH wrote:Regarding the narrowness of his face, it's roughly the same as every other Ryo model so that should not be a negative.

On the Online CG model though, it's... over the top. From the image I posted, the width of Ryo's head is almost the same as his left bicep. Even taking perspective into account, something just doesn't look right about it. Like I said before, the model looks fine from the side but once it comes to the front it all starts falling apart.

ShenmueHDYEAH wrote:If you're concerned about the scrunchness of his face, that can be fixed, And you see, that's the best part about the Shenmue Online Ryo. It can easily be copy and pasted on to next-gen hardware and then whatever shortcomings it has (tbh, I still don't see anything wrong with it!), they just have to adjust them slightly.

So, that Gamescom/Shenmue II Ryo composite has been posted enough times by now that it'll probably forever be considered a monument to how something very close to the original can still be shunned by certain people because it no longer looks 1:1 with the original. I'm sure in whatever alternate universe Ys Net did use the Online CG model or Passport model as a template, the complaints about it not looking right would begin to emerge from the purists once changes start to happen. And even then it has to be considered that the Online CG/Passport model is not a catch-all for pleasing fans or a definitive image they have in their minds.

I've been lurking comment sections across the internet since Shenmue III was announced, and the range of opinions has greatly varied over what looks like Ryo, what looks like a Dreamcast model, and these same opinions cropped up in different configurations for every iteration of the character models we've seen so far. It makes me glad that to some degree Ys Net have followed their own instincts, because as it is, the "feedback" that has come their way is a cacophony that can be very hard to make sense of.

People are entitled to their opinion on the matter but there's such a disparity in those actual opinions, and a pretty low threshold on acceptable changes, that railroading Ys Net to follow one look absolutely feels like asking them to just chase their tail. I'll be honest here; at this point IMO, it's time to let go of the old stuff and concentrate towards feedback for Ys Net that helps them improve the aesthetics of what they've got, rather than saying "make it look like X".

ShenmueHDYEAH wrote:Nice tweek by the way!

Thanks. I think the base components of a better Ryo are definitely there, just a few nudges and refinements can make a lot of difference.

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Switch » Mon May 28, 2018 6:25 am

It is cool that the little girl's mouth movements are animated finely enough to lip read what she is saying.
Image

It's in Japanese, but what she appears to be saying translates to: "Oh, it's you, Ryo!". :)

Details in this post (plus other commentary on the Shenmue-relevant parts of the presentation):
https://www.phantomriverstone.com/2018/05/new-shenmue-3-images-in-thq-nordic.html

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Spaghetti » Mon May 28, 2018 9:18 am

Nice one Switch.

When I saw the video I thought I saw her saying "Ojisan" rather than "Onisan", but didn't recognise the rest. I thought it was something to the effect of "Grandpa's inside" or something like that.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Switch » Mon May 28, 2018 5:49 pm

Spaghetti wrote:When I saw the video I thought I saw her saying "Ojisan" rather than "Onisan", but didn't recognise the rest. I thought it was something to the effect of "Grandpa's inside" or something like that.

Ah yes, there is the possibility of other words that fit too. I think "oniisan" does seem to be a good match with the way she looks up to see Ryo at the same time.

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby ShenmueTree » Tue May 29, 2018 10:20 am

Switch wrote: It is cool that the little girl's mouth movements are animated finely enough to lip read what she is saying.
Image

It's in Japanese, but what she appears to be saying translates to: "Oh, it's you, Ryo!". :)

Details in this post (plus other commentary on the Shenmue-relevant parts of the presentation):
https://www.phantomriverstone.com/2018/05/new-shenmue-3-images-in-thq-nordic.html


Personally, I'd transliterate it further to something like "Uncle Ryo, you're here!" The reason is because in English, "Uncle" is a very common nickname for friends, as well as for those you are close to by proxy of other people. You don't have to actually be related to someone by blood or marriage to be someone's "Uncle." In that way it is more a term for someone you are familiar with and like platonically, and often look up to, which I feel is the closest English equivalent to the Japanese word "Onii-Chan." You can call people you know and like or are friends with and you respect and look up to "Onii-Chan" or "Big brother" without having to be related to them by blood as well just like "Uncle."

As for changing "Oh, it's you" to "You're here", the former sounds too stiff and pedantic, as of course Ryo would realise he is in fact himself, Ryo. To me, it seems awkward for someone to point out that you are yourself. It is similarly awkward to be surprised that someone else is in fact themselves, that's why I feel in this specific context even if it isn't an exact translation it feels better to emphasize excitement over the person and location instead, even if the location was not mentioned at all. It's exciting that RYO is VISITING. I hope that makes sense.

To go on a bit of a tangent, I actually have a bit of a small annoyance with a lot of VN and anime English subs/fansubs where the character is talking about themselves and the translator goes for a literal translation where they translate what works best as first person to the texts' third person. For example someone translating

「ジャスミン:ジャスミンは悲しい」
to
“Jasmine: Jasmine is sad.”

Where Jasmine talks about herself in third person, instead of the much more natural English “Jasmine: I’m sad.”
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Sappharad » Tue May 29, 2018 8:27 pm

ShenmueTree wrote:Personally, I'd transliterate it further to something like "Uncle Ryo, you're here!" The reason is because in English, "Uncle" is a very common nickname for friends, as well as for those you are close to by proxy of other people. You don't have to actually be related to someone by blood or marriage to be someone's "Uncle."

No it isn't. Maybe in some non-US country, but I'm from the US and I've never heard this before ever. An uncle is your mother or father's brother. I've always thought "Uncle" was a Japanese thing, since whenever Hakura called Kiryu "Oji-san" in Japanese they localized it as "Uncle Kaz". It's definitely not something most people in the US would be familiar with, at least not in the midwest.

The only thing close I can think of is uncle as in "Uncle Ben's" rice, which was a term used in the south to refer to respected slaves, and it's not really appropriate for people to use in modern times. (This use of the term is mentioned in marketing section of referenced wikipedia article)
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Haruto » Tue May 29, 2018 8:29 pm

ShenmueTree wrote:

Personally, I'd transliterate it further to something like "Uncle Ryo, you're here!" The reason is because in English, "Uncle" is a very common nickname for friends, as well as for those you are close to by proxy of other people. sad.”


No. Just no. :roll:
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Spaghetti » Tue May 29, 2018 8:38 pm

Uncle Ryo's revenge rice... :-k

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby ShenmueTree » Tue May 29, 2018 8:53 pm

Sappharad wrote:
ShenmueTree wrote:Personally, I'd transliterate it further to something like "Uncle Ryo, you're here!" The reason is because in English, "Uncle" is a very common nickname for friends, as well as for those you are close to by proxy of other people. You don't have to actually be related to someone by blood or marriage to be someone's "Uncle."

No it isn't. Maybe in some non-US country, but I'm from the US and I've never heard this before ever. An uncle is your mother or father's brother. I've always thought "Uncle" was a Japanese thing, since whenever Hakura called Kiryu "Oji-san" in Japanese they localized it as "Uncle Kaz". It's definitely not something most people in the US would be familiar with, at least not in the midwest.


Yes it most definitely is. I am from the U.S as well and personally I've experienced it a lot. It might be a regional thing (East Coast) in the U.S but it is a thing. I'm from VA btw.

Also just to prove my point here are several forum posts pertaining to this and some reponses.

https://forum.wordreference.com/threads ... s.1052969/

This has come up indirectly in other discussions, but I haven't found a thread dedicated to this specifically.

How common is it where you live, or grew up, to use the words "Aunt" or "Uncle" (or their equivalents in other languages) with friends of the family who are not related?

Where I grew up, in the Northeast U.S., it was (and is, I think) common for parents to refer to their friends as "Aunt ____" and "Uncle _____" with their children, who then call them by those names. We never used just the words "aunt" and "uncle" alone (common in Latin America and U.S. Hispanic culture), but always with the first name of the person, as in "Uncle Frank" and "Aunt Katherine." A friend of mine from Ohio is puzzled when I talk about these aunts and uncles, thinking that those terms are reserved only for sisters and brothers of one's parents. I'm trying to get a sense of how "normal" it is both in the U.S. and elsewhere.


Here in England, we do refer to some people as "aunt" and "uncle" even though they are not directly related to our parents. It's usually done as a polite thing. My favourite was Aunty June, who sadly is no longer with us. She was my favourite aunt, but she wasn't related at all. I only ever had one Granny growing up, but she was the mother-in-law of my Mothers Brother and so not directly related to me.


Nowadays, however, kids are frequently calling their real Aunts and Uncles by their first name only. I would have liked to have been known as Aunty Katrina, but my nephews parents never insisted on it and so they won't call me by it. I insist on my kids using Aunt and Uncle when referring to them.


https://www.disboards.com/threads/do-yo ... e.2269150/

The other day my sister, in front of her son, referred to one of her friends as "Aunt Jane". I took offense to this as I am the real aunt. This person has only been in my sister's life for a couple of years and (in many circumstances) friends come and go, in my opinion. Why should friends have the title "aunt" or "uncle" along side the biological aunt and uncle? What has been your experience?


My kids call my best friend Aunt V. I see her more than I see my sister or brother. And frankly she is more involved in their day to day life.
So Yes my kids do call non- family Aunt. And they call my cousin Uncle R(But technically that is family)


I had (and still have) many aunts/uncles that are non-family. My father is a firefighter and his coworkers are closer to me than many of my family members. I always called them (and still do) uncle .....
I am called "aunt jen" by my best friend's daughter--my friend and I have been like brother and sister since we were young...so it would not offend me in the least, but I know every family is different


http://boards.hellobee.com/topic/callin ... t-or-uncle

My niece and nephew have been taught by their parents to call some friends "Aunt" or "Uncle." They have several aunts and uncles, most live within 10 minutes, and are extremely involved with them. My other siblings and I frequently babysit, take the kids out on fun trips, give them thoughtful gifts, etc. The friends called Aunt/Uncle are nice to them but not nearly as involved. What do you think?


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Dh is an only child and I have one younger brother. Ds calls all of our close friends uncle/aunt. He calls my brother and his wife aunt/uncle in Korean and they are the only ones by that name, to distinguish between our friends.


And from stackexchange

We often use "Uncle" to refer to a paternalistic figure or close family friend who isn't actually related by blood or marriage. For example, I'm a godfather to the young children of a family friend, and I'm usually introduced as "Uncle John" to the kids at birthdays or holiday gatherings.

It struck me that this is rather arbitrary.

Why isn't it, say, "Brother John" or "Grandpa John" or "Cousin John" or any other similar term?

Does this have any origins in "Uncle Sam", the national personification commonly used in America? That's the only connection I could think of.

Is this sort of thing common in other languages/cultures, too?



https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... -come-from

No it is extensively used in Britain and in many other countries. The Chinese and Japanese do it all time. In fact out East it is widely used for all sorts of people. It is a way of honoring the elderly. When I worked in Japan the guys in the office used to call the old security guard who looked after the office 'ojisan', which means 'uncle'. – WS2 Mar 16 '14 at 21:06
Even if Shakespeare day it was already a cliche, ie nuncle for "mine uncle"


Just because you're ignorant of the facts of the English language does not make the facts any less true.

It is 100% acceptable in the English language in America and in Britain to call a close family friend or someone you're familiar with an Uncle or an Aunt. I have personal experience with this, and as you can see with the provided quotes so do many others as well. And it's kind of rich to try to lecture me about racist terms against black people when I am black myself. (biracial) I know what "Uncle Ben"'s and "Uncle Tom"'s are.

Haruto wrote:
ShenmueTree wrote:

Personally, I'd transliterate it further to something like "Uncle Ryo, you're here!" The reason is because in English, "Uncle" is a very common nickname for friends, as well as for those you are close to by proxy of other people. sad.”


No. Just no. :roll:


Yes, just yes. If perfectly fits the situation if she's calling him Onii-san. No one calls their non relatives brother in English. When you're translating something you shouldn't always try to go to 1:1 you should make it the most natural to the language you're translating to.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Haruto » Tue May 29, 2018 10:19 pm

In all the places I've been in the US the only time I have seen anyone ever that says uncle is when it's their actual uncle.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby ShenmueTree » Tue May 29, 2018 10:34 pm

I've just proved that's incorrect. I mean, I understand you might not have heard of it before but it is definitely a thing and in my personal experience it is very common. If you're denying it after the evidence I've offered, then you're just ignoring reality.
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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Centrale » Tue May 29, 2018 11:44 pm

I think in the case of these kinds of suffixes (sorry, I don't know the proper name for them.. honorifics?) like -san, -kun, -chan and so forth, there are some distinctions between them and the types of titles and nicknames we have in English. There seems to be a kind of formality and a subtle expression of respect for tradition that we don't really have as much of in the West. So in those kinds of situation I think it works better to not translate them, especially since they can be picked up pretty quickly and understood in the context of the situation. Of course it gets a bit muddled as at this point in the story we're seeing Chinese characters using Japanese phrases.

As for "Oh, it's you," I think that's something that we could reasonably expect a very young kid to say. The child pretty much looks like a toddler so that seems like it could be a realistic reaction when seeing someone she has met recently.

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby Switch » Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 am

I agree with ShenmueTree that communicating the feeling / intention behind words can result in a more natural translation rather than a direct translation of the words. Having said that, for me, "It's you, Ryo" sounds a reasonable line for a small kid, but there are many other possibilities that may fit better - also not knowing the context of the clip makes it hard to judge.

ShenmueTree wrote:To go on a bit of a tangent, I actually have a bit of a small annoyance with a lot of VN and anime English subs/fansubs where the character is talking about themselves and the translator goes for a literal translation where they translate what works best as first person to the texts' third person. For example someone translating

「ジャスミン:ジャスミンは悲しい」
to
“Jasmine: Jasmine is sad.”

:) Hm, yes a speech pattern that sounds fine in Japanese definitely sounds weird put directly into English!

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Re: New Shenmue III pics from THQ Nordic financial presentat

Postby ShenmueTree » Wed May 30, 2018 8:14 am

Centrale wrote: I think in the case of these kinds of suffixes (sorry, I don't know the proper name for them.. honorifics?) like -san, -kun, -chan and so forth, there are some distinctions between them and the types of titles and nicknames we have in English. There seems to be a kind of formality and a subtle expression of respect for tradition that we don't really have as much of in the West. So in those kinds of situation I think it works better to not translate them, especially since they can be picked up pretty quickly and understood in the context of the situation. Of course it gets a bit muddled as at this point in the story we're seeing Chinese characters using Japanese phrases.

As for "Oh, it's you," I think that's something that we could reasonably expect a very young kid to say. The child pretty much looks like a toddler so that seems like it could be a realistic reaction when seeing someone she has met recently.


I actually agree with this but I think for a game like Shenmue things get a bit muddied. Shenmue takes place in China where all the characters speak a form of Chinese but everything is output in Japanese/English. It's kind of like Doctor Who's TARDIS' built in translator which translates everything to someones native language.

So, the question for an English translation is should you try to translate to English from the script of Japanese, or should you try to transliterate it as if you're translating from Chinese to add the unique flavors of that language, or should you try to default the translation to the most natural language in the players native tongue?

With games like the first Shenmue, Yakuza and Persona where the story takes place in Japan with Japanese characters, in a Japanese setting and culture it makes sense to keep the honorifics as it adds an air of nuance and authenticity to the script but as I mentioned with Shenmue, the game takes place in China, everyone is speaking Chinese, even Ryo, unless you expect that everyone in China suddenly knows Japanese, so it doesn't make sense to translate Japanese honorifics at all. To me, the most natural translation is one that gets the message, idea, and the spirit of the script across, even if the translation isn't necessarily 1:1 with the original script.

Also I've thought about it a bit and I agree that a kid saying "Oh, it's you." does make sense even though, personally I still feel it's a bit pedantic and redundant to then go on to mention his name, but that's the magic of language and translation, many people can have many different interpretations that many may agree or disagree with but it doesn't mean they're at all wrong for them (with the exception of translations that do not correlate or offer the spirit of the script at all, those can in my opinion, be objectively wrong.)
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