Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

(Shenmue I & II Re-Release Discussion)

Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Jibby » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:25 am

Nope, it's not the same.
In the beta, Shenhua's head is in a different position and her eyes are looking further to our right/her left.

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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Dorian » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:30 am

Jibby wrote: Nope, it's not the same.
In the beta, Shenhua's head is in a different position and her eyes are looking further to our right/her left.

Image

Of course it's not that beta since the backgrounds are different.
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Jibby » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:32 am

Dorian wrote:Of course it's not that beta since the backgrounds are different.

That's what I'm trying to say. The remaster assets ≠ the beta assets. Both the background and the model's eye position is different.

It doesn't match the original release, but the remaster definitely isn't based on the beta.
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Dorian » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:35 am

Jibby wrote:
Dorian wrote:Of course it's not that beta since the backgrounds are different.

That's what I'm trying to say. The remaster assets ≠ the beta assets. Both the background and the model's eye position is different.

Yes, Jibby, but to me it's neither beta nor retail. It's very strange. Maybe it's the retail version with some weird edits?
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Jibby » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:38 am

Dorian wrote:
Yes, Jibby, but to me it's neither beta nor retail. It's very strange. Maybe it's the retail version with some weird edits?

Ah, you misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's identical to the retail version either. I'm just trying to disprove the theory that it's being constructed with outdated beta assets.
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Dorian » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:46 am

Jibby wrote:
Dorian wrote:
Yes, Jibby, but to me it's neither beta nor retail. It's very strange. Maybe it's the retail version with some weird edits?

Ah, you misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's identical to the retail version either. I'm just trying to disprove the theory that it's being constructed with outdated beta assets.

We're saying the same thing, dude.

Here's the remastered shot with the face proportions fixed. I turned it B/W and I did the same with the shot from the retail DC version, so that the bloom of the remaster doesn't distract from comparing.

Image

Now the retail DC shot.

Image

It is clear that the model is the same, but the remaster has wrong face proportions unless fixed and a SLIGHTLY different eye movement. My theory is that they've got the game's code running on modern hardware and it's not behaving exactly like on the DC devkits or that they are simply making some alternations, like timing for example. Some of these alternations might be accidental. Either way, it's not the beta footage.
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Jibby » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:53 am

What I think could is happening is the camera is in a slightly position in the remaster than it is in the retail version. That would explain why the shapes of the faces don't seem to line up as well as the fact that the eyes appear to be in different positions:

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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Dorian » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:57 am

Jibby wrote: What I think could is happening is the camera is in a slightly position in the remaster than it is in the retail version. That would explain why the shapes of the faces don't seem to line up as well as the fact that the eyes appear to be in different positions.

It is possible, I guess, but it doesn't explain why the face has different proportions. I believe there is some error while running the original code due to whatever way they are running the code on modern hardware. It's quite concerning, actually. They need to be alarmed as soon as possible because if it ends up with fat faces and wrong eye movement, it will kill most scenes.
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Telekill » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:00 am

Looking good. I'm not worried about the haze in the environment or her face being slightly stretched. I'm sure all of that will be fixed by the time the product goes gold.
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Dorian » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:03 am

Telekill wrote: Looking good. I'm not worried about the haze in the environment or her face being slightly stretched. I'm sure all of that will be fixed by the time the product goes gold.

I'm surprised it wasn't fixed for the trailer. Isn't that Koralik guy supposed to be an avid Shenmue fan? Why didn't he point out all of this to them before the unveiling?
Last edited by Dorian on Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby BlueMue » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:05 am

The aspect ratio for I & II seems wrong because the one in the Dreamcast footage is wrong.

It is definately too lean, the image is not as wide as properly adjusted 4:3 looks. Compare the amount of black borders to any of my videos from the DC that I uploaded in the past 2 years.

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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Jibby » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:06 am

Dorian wrote:I'm surprised it wasn't fixed for the trailer. Isn't that Koralik guy supposed to be an avid Shenmue fan? Why didn't he point all of this out to them before the unveiling?

Probably because this title screen mishap is likely an isolated incident that isn't present during gameplay.
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Dorian » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:07 am

BlueMue wrote: The aspect ratio for I & II seems wrong because the one in the Dreamcast footage is wrong.

It is definately too lean, the image is not as wide as properly adjusted 4:3 looks. Compare the amount of black borders to any of my videos from the DC that I uploaded in the past 2 years.

Except the black borders are supposed to be there because it's for overscan. If anything, typical CRT TVs stretched the image improperly due to lazy overscan adjustments in factories. The footage is taken directly from the DC, so it doesn't have overscan compensation errors.
Jibby wrote:Probably because this title screen mishap is likely an isolated incident that isn't present during gameplay.

Unlikely as it's the same code. If something runs wrong in the opening, it will run wrong in the whole game.
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby BlueMue » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:12 am

The Dreamcast is a bit of an oddity when it comes to its displayed resolution.

It's not the CRTs that did it wrong it's modern TVs and capture hardware that does so. If you however set them right like I can do on my capture card, you get the image as it's meant to be seen. The graphics were designed with the "streching" in mind. Only when set to fill the 4:3 area the watch is perfectly round. This is how it should be displayed by any means and the remaster definately goes the right way.
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Re: Remaster VS Original Comparison Video

Postby Dorian » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:58 am

It's not really an oddity. It's what happens with all 4:3 games. The problem here is that CRT TVs didn't have a fixed overscan. Game devs back then knew they had to compensate for overscan differences between various CRT displays themselves. That's why games had been made with black borders, which normally would be outside of the viewable area of the screen. This is a source of a little controversy. It's been quite debated back when PS1 Classics hit PSN, for example. Sony decided to output those games exactly like they are, which means they have black borders on modern displays. That's how they were supposed to work, just that a typical CRT would stretch the image to suit its own overscan adjustments. It's well-know as the square pixels controversy among the emulator crowd. It's especially noticeable with Nintendo games for NES and SNES. People can't decide if they should be stretched to 4:3 with overscan compensation or left with perfect square pixels. The famous Metroid ball, which isn't a perfect circle on a typical 4:3 CRT, but becomes one on an emulator with the perfect square mode turned on.

In other words, this is a matter to debate. I guess they should simply add both modes in the remaster, so that people can pick their own way of dealing with the aspect ratio incompatibilities between old and new display technologies. Personally, I dislike the stretching in the remaster.

With that being said, there's still an aspect ratio error in the remaster.

This is how it should look on a CRT with proper adjustments to H and V Size parameters:

Image

Now, the Cycu1 comparison:

Image

As you can see, his DC footage is without any overscan adjustments and it might be considered too lean. However, the remaster footage is definitely too stretched. It should be somewhere between the two, like the first image.
Last edited by Dorian on Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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