Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

(Shenmue I & II Re-Release Discussion)

Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby DigitalDuck » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:05 am

Anonymous81 wrote:They absolutely, factually (not a matter of opinion) do NOT have a legal right to do so. It's a myth that you have the legal right to download a copy of a game you own. You do have a legal entitlement to CREATE your own backup copy of software you've purchased. You do NOT have the legal entitlement to download someone else's, or to distribute your own, online. That is called piracy, and is illegal. You can argue the moral right. You cannot argue the legal right. As stated though, I won't debate it beyond this point. We'll have to agree to disagree.


This is false. Rather than go into detail and risk more back and forth, I'll leave a copy of the EU and US laws on the subject, with relevant paragraphs:

(13) The exclusive rights of the author to prevent the unauthorised reproduction of his work should be subject to a limited exception in the case of a computer program to allow the reproduction technically necessary for the use of that program by the lawful acquirer. This means that the acts of loading and running necessary for the use of a copy of a program which has been lawfully acquired, and the act of correction of its errors, may not be prohibited by contract. In the absence of specific contractual provisions, including when a copy of the program has been sold, any other act necessary for the use of the copy of a program may be performed in accordance with its intended purpose by a lawful acquirer of that copy.

(14) A person having a right to use a computer program should not be prevented from performing acts necessary to observe, study or test the functioning of the program, provided that those acts do not infringe the copyright in the program.

(15) The unauthorised reproduction, translation, adaptation or transformation of the form of the code in which a copy of a computer program has been made available constitutes an infringement of the exclusive rights of the author. Nevertheless, circumstances may exist when such a reproduction of the code and translation of its form are indispensable to obtain the necessary information to achieve the interoperability of an independently created program with other programs. It has therefore to be considered that, in these limited circumstances only, performance of the acts of reproduction and translation by or on behalf of a person having a right to use a copy of the program is legitimate and compatible with fair practice and must therefore be deemed not to require the authorisation of the rightholder. An objective of this exception is to make it possible to connect all components of a computer system, including those of different manufacturers, so that they can work together. Such an exception to the author's exclusive rights may not be used in a way which prejudices the legitimate interests of the rightholder or which conflicts with a normal exploitation of the program.


(a)Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological Measures.—
(1)
(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.
(B) The prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to persons who are users of a copyrighted work which is in a particular class of works, if such persons are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by virtue of such prohibition in their ability to make noninfringing uses of that particular class of works under this title, as determined under subparagraph (C).
(C) During the 2-year period described in subparagraph (A), and during each succeeding 3-year period, the Librarian of Congress, upon the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, who shall consult with the Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of the Department of Commerce and report and comment on his or her views in making such recommendation, shall make the determination in a rulemaking proceeding for purposes of subparagraph (B) of whether persons who are users of a copyrighted work are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by the prohibition under subparagraph (A) in their ability to make noninfringing uses under this title of a particular class of copyrighted works. In conducting such rulemaking, the Librarian shall examine—
(i) the availability for use of copyrighted works;
(ii) the availability for use of works for nonprofit archival, preservation, and educational purposes;
(iii) the impact that the prohibition on the circumvention of technological measures applied to copyrighted works has on criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research;
(iv) the effect of circumvention of technological measures on the market for or value of copyrighted works; and
(v) such other factors as the Librarian considers appropriate.

...

(f)Reverse Engineering.—
(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.
(3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.
(4) For purposes of this subsection, the term “interoperability” means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.


Article 4

Restricted acts

1. Subject to the provisions of Articles 5 and 6, the exclusive rights of the rightholder within the meaning of Article 2 shall include the right to do or to authorise:

(a) the permanent or temporary reproduction of a computer program by any means and in any form, in part or in whole; in so far as loading, displaying, running, transmission or storage of the computer program necessitate such reproduction, such acts shall be subject to authorisation by the rightholder;

(b) the translation, adaptation, arrangement and any other alteration of a computer program and the reproduction of the results thereof, without prejudice to the rights of the person who alters the program;

(c) any form of distribution to the public, including the rental, of the original computer program or of copies thereof.

2. The first sale in the Community of a copy of a program by the rightholder or with his consent shall exhaust the distribution right within the Community of that copy, with the exception of the right to control further rental of the program or a copy thereof.

Article 5

Exceptions to the restricted acts

1. In the absence of specific contractual provisions, the acts referred to in points (a) and (b) of Article 4(1) shall not require authorisation by the rightholder where they are necessary for the use of the computer program by the lawful acquirer in accordance with its intended purpose, including for error correction.

2. The making of a back-up copy by a person having a right to use the computer program may not be prevented by contract in so far as it is necessary for that use.

3. The person having a right to use a copy of a computer program shall be entitled, without the authorisation of the rightholder, to observe, study or test the functioning of the program in order to determine the ideas and principles which underlie any element of the program if he does so while performing any of the acts of loading, displaying, running, transmitting or storing the program which he is entitled to do.


TL;DR: if DRM hinders the performance of the program, it is legal in both US and EU law to either a) reverse-engineer and modify the program to remove the DRM, or b) obtain a modified copy of the program, provided that the purpose of the modification is to allow the functioning of the program on a system for which it is intended.

In fact, these laws are specifically in place because of intrusive DRM - they originally came about when SEGA tried to prevent homebrew games from running on their systems by requiring a "SEGA" string in the ROM at the right place to run, then tried to sue anyone who made homebrew games for copyright infringement (because they had "SEGA" in their code).

It's still illegal to distribute copyrighted code, of course.

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Anonymous81 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:12 am

I'm not going to get into a legal debate with piracy advocates, especially one that goes beyond the already stated parameters of the discussion, and tries to assert that DRM impacts the "functioning" of software sufficiently to justify said piracy. (Re: your post below btw, I include downloading cracked copies piracy regardless of whether they own the game. Because it is. We simply disagree about that.) I stand by my earlier post. I'm done participating. And if Shenmuedojo is okay with allowing the advocacy of piracy, I'm returning to my self-imposed exile from this community as well. Goodbye.
Last edited by Anonymous81 on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby DigitalDuck » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:16 am

Anonymous81 wrote: I'm not going to get into a legal debate with piracy advocates. I stand by my earlier post.


DigitalDuck wrote:I don't support people downloading a cracked copy of a game they haven't paid for. People worked hard to bring you this, reward them. Doing otherwise is both immoral and illegal.


I'm not going to continue with someone who either cannot read or is willfully misinterpreting my posts.
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Anonymous81 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:16 am

That's my last post ever on this site. Goodbye.

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Crimson Ryan » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:26 am

That was easy..

I learned something from your posts at least, Digital Duck.
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby MiTT3NZ » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:04 pm

The 4:3 thing doesn't really make sense to me considering the cut scenes were in-engine rather than pre-rendered, though I know models were swapped in for em so it could have summat to do with that. Doesn't mean that the assets didn't exist for it though. Still it's not really a massive issue.

Good video though. Too many on YouTube tend to waffle on for far too long and for no apparent reason. Top one Koralik!
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Skillz » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:27 pm

GYO6161 wrote: I knew compressed audio was what we were getting. While it's known Sega still has Ryo's English lines uncompressed i highly doubt they also have every single uncompressed line from the close to one a thousand NPCs throughout both games in both languages so its understandable.


Yeah I hear of people making complaints about other games and how they are getting MIDI and not Orchestra like another games on the series. specifically I am talking about a role playing game. But at we get to play the game I will take any sound and Japanese voice over uncompressed sound/music.
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby PILMAN » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:40 pm

Anonymous81 wrote: The performance impact of Denuvo is debatable, and some facets of the claims surrounding it have been thoroughly debunked. Others remain possible, though (however, results from crackers and pirates are not results I will respect or trust personally.)

I didn't say I support the inclusion of Denuvo or other intrusive DRM for the record. On the contrary, as a general rule, I oppose it, and as I stated, I generally won't buy games that include it (though I'm making a massive exception for Shenmue, because it's a game I adore and has been out of print for nearly two decades and supporting it will help preserve the game,) or if I do, I wait for massive discounts.

But the issue isn't whether Denuvo reduces piracy. The issue is whether piracy makes Denuvo and its ilk more likely, which it does. The more people pirate - and I want to state this as unequivocally as I can: people have ZERO moral or legal right to pirate, period, and I will oppose piracy, full stop - the more likely these DRM measures become. I don't agree with it, but that's the reality. If you want to stop anti-piracy measures... you can't solely oppose their inclusion. You also have to oppose piracy.

I oppose both. That's where I stand. Won't debate it beyond that. Agree to disagree if need be.


I see, my view on it is that I understand to some degree why companies would go this route but not necessarily in agreement with the inclusion of DRM and I say this as someone who backed shenmue via kickstarter, bought the game on steam and paid for the original games while also having a emulated version for backup purposes.

I know piracy was a big downfall of the sega dreamcast and I believe lead to part of the ultimate downfall of the system. I also know that piracy significantly affected pc gaming to where many games were kept on consoles as exclusives due to a negative view on pc gamers being pirates but the last few years that has significantly changed to where we are seeing more original titles and ports back to PC.

My particular concerns with the DRM arent that I dont believe it shouldnt exist but perhaps would agree with it if it was timed for a limited period and then removed. There are several issues with existing EULA and Intellectual Property laws which basically only grant a license to the person who pirchases say a movie or game and can be revoked. There are some cases this has affected me.

I used to play a mmorpg called asherons call which shut down after nearly 2 decades and the company turbine was purchased by WB. Turbines devs had stated they would release the server and client before shut down and never did. Some fans of the game offered to purchase the works which was unsuccessful so fans looked into launching a emulated version of the server which prompted a legal response from WB and the individual working on the project had to shut everything down.

While this isnt a specific case of DRM and more specific to EULA and IP rights, it gives. general idea how that community has no way to play a game they originally purchased and have no legal way to replicate the game due to existing laws that prevent them from actually running a server despite the fact there are no plans to ever relaunch asherons call.

In the specific case of the always online criteria, I know there was a period where I had lost internet service for an extended amount of time and I had not played GTA 5 in some time, i was prevented from playing since I couldnt authenticate with the servers and GTA was preventing individuals from playing online with modded games for graphical enhancement.

Some perfect cases of where piracy did not impact a game would be kingdom come deliverance which was released on steam as well as on gog

Shenmues case regardless, I paid for the game because Ive waited a very long time for this. As you can see ive been on this forum for more than 14 years and longer than that before my present forum name. I support any effort to bring Shenmue to the world, and I fully understand the intention to protect against piracy, sadly I think sometimes we forget to criticize the things that should change and I would ultimately prefer that at some point the DRM is removed not to benefit pirates but to allow for true ownership of something we paid money towards.
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Peter » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:55 pm

Anonymous81 wrote: That's my last post ever on this site. Goodbye.


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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby PILMAN » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:02 pm

Peter wrote:
Anonymous81 wrote: That's my last post ever on this site. Goodbye.


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Digitalduck provided a great reference and that anonymous guy just stormed out after being provided evidence countering his argument...well...good riddance I suppose?

:D
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Peter » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:25 pm

Threw the book at him.

Literally.
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby punkmanced » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:19 pm

^ I seem to recall him mentioning some sort of crippling medical/anxiety issues; it might provide some context here.

In any case, he’s a good poster, so it’s unfortunate (and frankly a bit silly) to just abruptly quit like this, especially over an informative discussion.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Come back dude, it’s a good time to be a Shenmue fan.

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby iyapol » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:28 pm

Anonymous81 wrote: That's my last post ever on this site. Goodbye.


Like the end of a Weakest Link episode.

Goodbye.

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby KidMarine » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:46 pm

punkmanced wrote: ^ I seem to recall him mentioning some sort of crippling medical/anxiety issues; it might provide some context here.

In any case, he’s a good poster, so it’s unfortunate (and frankly a bit silly) to just abruptly quit like this, especially over an informative discussion.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Come back dude, it’s a good time to be a Shenmue fan.

Yep. He's one of the best posters imo. Shame to see him go.

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Centrale » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:55 pm

You know what, though? I can go to pretty much any forum and read the same stuff from people moaning about Denuvo and DRM in general. It's not like it's a point of view that's underrepresented by the keyboard warriors of the internet. I don't think it's something worthy of multiple walls of text on a Shenmue forum. Much like the issue of the aspect ratio in cutscenes, this issue is settled as far as Shenmue on PC is concerned. If the Dojo has lost one thoughtful poster who chimed in on multiple Shenmue-related topics, and gained one DRM crusader who's just copy-pasting cherry-picked bits of legal code, then we're worse for it today.
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