Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

(Shenmue I & II Re-Release Discussion)

Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby darkfalz » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:56 am

RiGoRmOrTiS wrote: Resolution options are not pointless. PC users should always have an option to run games at the native resolution of whatever panel they are running.

The GPU requirements on a game like shenmue to run in different resolutions is minimal. There are no screen space effects, shaders, per pixel lighting etc... Just basic geometry and flat textures. It doesn't make sense, only reason I can think of is they couldn't be bothered to scale the new UI which boggles the mind after they put so much effort into migrating the code in the first place which was the hard part.

That said, it's hardly the end of the world.


I wonder if it will feature MSAA at 1080p or maybe just lazy post-process AA. It will probably render 1080p and then scale up/down to native PC resolution. Which is annoying for the 1440p / 2160p crowd, but such is life.
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby AnimeGamer183 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:49 pm

My take on the technical "issues" in the HD collection pretty much come down to this:

Could they have done all the things we are requesting? Absolutely, there are plenty of options and routes they could have taken to achieve things like 4k, 16:9 cut scenes, 60 frames per second etc. The entertainment business is full of tricks and techniques to make things happen that shouldnt be possible and many people have made a name for themselves inside the entertainment industry for discovering things like that. But Sega didnt go that route, and why didnt they? Because it just wasnt in their initial budget and plan for this HD collection id imagine, this is Sega we are talking about they have always been hesitant and cautious about Shenmue ever since the first 2 games came out, they allocated X amount of money and said get it done with this and we'll go from there.

That being said if Sega had known that this thing was going to top the pre-order charts in multiple countries around the world, maybe they would have included some of these features but they took the side of caution, also the price point would have likely changed they wouldnt have been able to keep the $30 price point which would have probably hurt sales and they avoided back lash from the price being too much say if they retailed it at $60 and even if at that price point it had all these extra assests you know people would bitching about either price or lack of features at $30, seems to me they made the right choice based on the information they had at the time.

And lets not forget how much money they lost on Shenmue the first time, we dont know when the Shenmue HD collection project started work and any of the behind closed doors details to make this thing happen. I think its also very important to note that since this collection has blown up that it isnt out of the realm of possibility for Sega to maybe patch some of these features in with later updates to please fans since we came out in droves for this thing. We just need to give it time and even if we dont get updates we still have another version of the game playable on current hardware.

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby MiTT3NZ » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:00 am

I agree with AG. Reality will cease in 3... 2...

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby TheThirdComing » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:59 am

My resolve to the widescreen issue is to play the 360 version of the game - i just got myself a console recently and I found that if you put the output resolution to 480p you can then force the console into widescreen - this works on the backwards compatible titles too. I'd rather have a stretched image than boarders.
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby iyapol » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:02 am

TheThirdComing wrote:I'd rather have a stretched image than boarders.


Honestly? I wouldn't...
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby TheThirdComing » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:16 am

Yeah, it really doesn't look that much different to me, I barely notice it, but seeing the screen croppped is so jarring especially Shenmue 2's 4:3 Letterbox combo. I saw Adam did anotehr video recently explaining his thoery into why Shenmue 1 is in 4:3 While I don't 100% agree with it there is cetainly no excuse for Shemue 2 as the cutscenes are in widescene presentation boxed by borders anyway - Even the damn trailer they edited this! I'm grateful for many of the tweaks, faster loading and the subtitles look much better but not puttign effort into the cutscenes on a ground breakingly cinematic game simply does not do Shenmue justice.

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby iyapol » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:20 am

AnimeGamer183 wrote:I think its also very important to note that since this collection has blown up that it isnt out of the realm of possibility for Sega to maybe patch some of these features in with later updates to please fans since we came out in droves for this thing.


I bloody ruddy hope so. :rotflmao:
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Esppiral » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:51 am

I just can't justufy 99% of the choices they've made with this re-lelease, let's call it that way instead of "HD"

If its true that they are working with source code I don't see a single reason why they are taking so many wrong decisions.

Specially the one related to resolution, But I see lots of people defending the direction d3t has taken with this port, I just can't believe it.... as much as I love Shenmue, I'm incredibly sad with this re-release.

People defending the lack of resolutions higher than 1080p arguing that it is not necessary saddens me, specially when we have seen tons of screenshots of emulated S1 and S2 at crazy resolutions and they look awesome, specially on 4k panels..

Xbox version emulated at 4k
Image

The bad audio quality, the lack of passport... I just can't...

Then the artistic vision about 16:9 cutscenes.... I mean it's more a technical constrain of the time than an artistic vision, and if that werent the case, and they are just trying to preserve the original vision...I don't Thinks Yu's vision was to see S2 cutscenes this way.


Image

It looks hideous

I don't care if I get hated by my opinion about what I think about this port, but they just couldn't do the simplest of the things like swapping Ryo's texture jacket in Shenmue 1 to use the higer resolution one from the xbox version ( wtch in return is the Passport texture for Ryo's Jacket), something that simple jet they didn't care.

Image

Image

Right now I am just as sad as mad about this, I should've relaxed before writing this post but the amount of posts defending such bad choices from d3t is driving me crazy.

Just to be clear, I am happy the games are getting re-released and we can play them on modern systems and can be enjoyed by modern audiencies but I've would preferred something....

Image

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Technophilz » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:20 am

I've checked almost every gaming magazine came out this month, and I couldn't find this port (or re-release or whatever it is) mentioned anywhere. Shenmue fans deserve better.
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby iyapol » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:28 am

Esppiral wrote: I just can't justufy 99% of the choices they've made with this re-lelease, let's call it that way instead of "HD"

If its true that they are working with source code I don't see a single reason why they are taking so many wrong decisions.

Specially the one related to resolution, But I see lots of people defending the direction d3t has taken with this port, I just can't believe it.... as much as I love Shenmue, I'm incredibly sad with this re-release.

People defending the lack of resolutions higher than 1080p arguing that it is not necessary saddens me, specially when we have seen tons of screenshots of emulated S1 and S2 at crazy resolutions and they look awesome, specially on 4k panels..

Xbox version emulated at 4k
Image

The bad audio quality, the lack of passport... I just can't...

Then the artistic vision about 16:9 cutscenes.... I mean it's more a technical constrain of the time than an artistic vision, and if that werent the case, and they are just trying to preserve the original vision...I don't Thinks Yu's vision was to see S2 cutscenes this way.


Image

It looks hideous

I don't care if I get hated by my opinion about what I think about this port, but they just couldn't do the simplest of the things like swapping Ryo's texture jacket in Shenmue 1 to use the higer resolution one from the xbox version ( wtch in return is the Passport texture for Ryo's Jacket), something that simple jet they didn't care.

Image

Image

Right now I am just as sad as mad about this, I should've relaxed before writing this post but the amount of posts defending such bad choices from d3t is driving me crazy.

Just to be clear, I am happy the games are getting re-released and we can play them on modern systems and can be enjoyed by modern audiencies but I've would preferred something....

Image


Oh oooh. Hate train coming your way, matey! \:D/
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Valascaziel » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:52 am

This story has a point at the end, but is still an opinion I suppose.

Yesterday, I went to help my mother run some errands at home. She is getting older and struggling in the wake of
my father's death last year, as he took care of everything while they were married.

She wanted to buy something for the grandchildren; she rarely ever sees them due to distance so we walked around Target. They happened to have a lone NES Classic in the case, which she thought the kids would love as I had one at their current age(5 and 3.5). So she got it as their gift..

The system runs in 16:9 before you choose a game and then switches to the 4:3 mode with black borders when you select one and begin to play on a widescreen HDTV...

You know what? It didnt jar me, nor did it take away from the experience for me or my son(young daughter just wanted to watch it).

I doubt Shenmue HDs transition will really bother me. I say this because I was one of the naysayers and even though it still elicits a twinge of disappointment, I'm more ok with it now.


As an aside, I walked into my father's "music room", as he was a massive audiophile and sauntered around a bit reminiscing. Next to the altar which houses his medical license, etc was a stack of CDs he often listened to on his large speakers. On the top was Shenmue Orchestra and Shenmue Chapter 1.

He always snuck my CDs as a kid, as he loved classical or instrumental. Fitting that would be there.

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Hyo Razuki » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:20 am

Esppiral wrote: I just can't justufy 99% of the choices they've made with this re-lelease, let's call it that way instead of "HD"

If its true that they are working with source code I don't see a single reason why they are taking so many wrong decisions.

Specially the one related to resolution, But I see lots of people defending the direction d3t has taken with this port, I just can't believe it.... as much as I love Shenmue, I'm incredibly sad with this re-release.

People defending the lack of resolutions higher than 1080p arguing that it is not necessary saddens me, specially when we have seen tons of screenshots of emulated S1 and S2 at crazy resolutions and they look awesome, specially on 4k panels..

Xbox version emulated at 4k
Image

The bad audio quality, the lack of passport... I just can't...

Then the artistic vision about 16:9 cutscenes.... I mean it's more a technical constrain of the time than an artistic vision, and if that werent the case, and they are just trying to preserve the original vision...I don't Thinks Yu's vision was to see S2 cutscenes this way.


Image

It looks hideous

I don't care if I get hated by my opinion about what I think about this port, but they just couldn't do the simplest of the things like swapping Ryo's texture jacket in Shenmue 1 to use the higer resolution one from the xbox version ( wtch in return is the Passport texture for Ryo's Jacket), something that simple jet they didn't care.

Image

Image

Right now I am just as sad as mad about this, I should've relaxed before writing this post but the amount of posts defending such bad choices from d3t is driving me crazy.

Just to be clear, I am happy the games are getting re-released and we can play them on modern systems and can be enjoyed by modern audiencies but I've would preferred something....

Image


Thanks for sharing your controversial opinion, dude. It's discussions like this which make a forum worth participating in.

I can see your point but honestly, I personally don't care about the passport feature. Don't get me wrong, I used to play F 355 and especially PSO online a lot in the early 2000s but the Shenmue passport? Nah...

The character videos explaining game mechanics are beautiful and I love the character character profiles but I have always had the feeling that this was just online functions for their own sake. Kind of like Sega telling Yu to shoe-horn some online elements into S1. Never really understood why that thing even exists.

About the aspect ratio... Yeah, I also don't get what kept them from making the cutscenes 16:9, especially since S1 and 2 don't have any pre-rendered cutscenes if I remember correctly. I agree that this is kind of a bummer. That being said, I used to play a lot of Dreamcast and PS2 on modern televisions. 4:3 on a 16:9 TV never bothered me.

But the one thing that really pisses me off is the fact they are using the Xbox version of S2 as a source. A lot of textures wrong, Yen signs on the vending machines in Hong Kong, wrong music in the intro scene to Guilin and so on and so forth.

On the other hand, please don't look past all the hell of a lot of right decisions they've made on this release.

1. Save anywhere in S1.
2. Choose between old and new UI.
3. Dual Audio
4. Adding subtitles in more languages for people who don't speak English, such as French, German (European version) and Chinese (Asian version).
5. Choosing the right time to release those games. August, before Red Dead Redemption 2 will come and also long enough before S3's release.

Dozens of people have said this before but a semi-lazy port is all we could have ever hoped for. It was only after the S3 Kickstarter and slacker backer campaigns being as succesfull as they were, that Sega realized there may be money to be made with Shenmue so they didn't wanna take too many chances. I'm saying semi-lazy port because with a real lazy port we wouldn't have gotten any of the points I mentioned above.


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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby Jibby » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:11 pm

I don't think anybody is trying to suggest that these are the perfect dream ports of Shenmue.

Even I'll admit that there's stuff I wish they could have implemented. It'd be great to see 16:9 cutscenes. 4k? I'd love to play it on my 4k monitor. Obviously these things would make it a definitively better port; you'd be hard-pressed to find somebody who doesn't think this.

But are these problems enough to write off the entire port? I wouldn't say so. In the grand scheme of things some of these criticisms are fairly small. It's not like d3t and SEGA aren't putting effort into these ports. We could have had a lazily done emulated port with zero enhancements, but that's not the case. Things I rarely see the people who are overly saddened by these ports mention is features such as saving anywhere, both dubs, short loading times, modern controls etc. I'm not saying that people should ignore the shortcomings because there's good things too. But when you feign ignorance to these things and focus exclusively on the negatives then obviously you're going to be disappointed.

Do we deserve better? It's a tough one to answer. Technically we don't really deserve anything. Only a couple of months back getting any sort of remaster seemed like an impossibility with SEGA barely uttering a single word about Shenmue. Some are so quick to forget about this. I know that there are posters here who have never uttered a single positive thing about Shenmue, but even still, apply some context and realise that we're actually getting something pretty decent (albeit with a couple of shortcomings) instead of acting so ungrateful and demanding we have it better.

To summarise, I just don't get how people can get this upset over these ports and make SEGA and d3t out to be lazy and awful when what we're actually getting is going to be a well crafted, decent port (after many years of asking for it) with a few drawbacks.

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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby ner0 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:06 pm

I'm a bit saddened by the lack of some enhancements already mentioned like wrong assets in wrong place, lack of widescreen cut-scenes, lack of higher resolution gameplay and textures, lack of higher sampling rate audio. I'm not sure about the shadows though; I've seen some criticism that it's lacking them as the XBox360 did, but I think that I've seen some contradicting trailers, although I'm not sure of their accuracy or chronology in relation to each other... on one trailer there were no shadows of buildings nor characters, but on another there were shadows cast by buildings and characters.

That being said, and all things considered, this remaster release is nothing but positive.
As for the shortcomings, I'm confident that the modding community will rise to the occasion wherever "SEGA doesn't" - apart from lack of enhanced audio (VO), that unfortunately is still beyond our reach.

Cheer up, gang!
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Re: Adam Koralik explains the re-releases (4:3, audio etc)

Postby sand4fish » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:10 pm

Just a matter of perspective. Maybe they could have done 4k, but would it matter much? Personally do I want to see how muddy some of the textures are and exacerbate how old this game really is graphically speaking in even finer detail? Not really as it's not a remake, just a HD enhancement as it is being advertised.

Is this a lazy port by d3t? I can't tell because I don't know the budget d3t was working with like AG mentioned. But I don't really think so, as they could just have used emulation and be done with it.

About the 4:3 cutscenes, those are Yu's cinematography at play. Others have pointed out before how old films originally 4:3 scanned to widescreen ended up showing stuff not meant to be seen like camera crews and out of place objects, in the end changing the original intended atmosphere of the scene. Well, the same can be said here as npcs shown in the 16:9 emulation, not meant to be seen in the original frame shot, are frozen in place as example. Even worse as the draw of extra geometry already shows distracting artifacts in the emulation, who is to say that in the engine d3t worked with it won't break the game? Either way, changing the original ratio of the constructed shot cutscenes is the same as changing Yu's original artistic vision imo.

Another thing I see it being complained about in other forums is the 30 fps. Well, besides being hard coded I believe it's tied to the time system in the game and it would mess with its mechanics and probably break the physics in the game. I'd imagine Shenmue HD 60 fps looking like this in execution:

phpBB [video]


Anyway, I'm stocked for the release of Shenmue 1 & 2 HD not because of me playing it, but it is finally the chance the franchise ever had to draw in new fans towards Shenmue 3 and beyond. And I'm confident the newcomers won't nitpick these games that are nearly as old as they probably are.
Last edited by sand4fish on Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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