Cliffy B says stuff topic

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Cliffy B says stuff topic

Postby Who Really Cares? » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:35 am

Not both according to him.

From twitter,
You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing. The numbers do NOT work people.


The visual fidelity and feature sets we expect from games now come with sky high costs. Assasins Creed games are made by thousands of devs.


Bleszinski also suggested that those worried by Xbox One's 24 hour sign-in requirement and extensive cloud support should treat their ISPs to a sternly worded letter.

If you can afford high speed internet and you can't get it where you live direct your rage at who is responsible for pipe blocking you.


If you could only hear the chat I just had with Adam Orth.


If you're saying the next round of the console war is over before it even started then you're a fucking idiot. This is a multi year fight.


For the record I'm buying both a Ps4 and an Xbox One.



http://www.oxm.co.uk/56320/bleszinski-y ... -not-both/
Last edited by Who Really Cares? on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby Sonikku » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:41 am

ok, then cut out the marketing budget. I don't need commercials to tell me what to spend my money on. I use ad block plus to screen them out any how.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby MiTT3NZ » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:46 am

The Xbox One rage debate is just getting tedious now. There's essentially two crowds... the ones blindly praising the positives, and the guys fiercely scrutinising the negatives, whilst the small few with common sense are too scattered to be considered a crowd.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby mue 26 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:51 am

Assasins Creed games are made by thousands of devs.


And coincidentally, that's exactly why that series became increasingly poor in quality.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby Axm » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:15 am

What a bunch of capitalist nonsense. They can afford it and they know it, stop giving yourselves yearly arbitrary raises or wasting money on other aspects of the business instead of blaming the rights of your own customers.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby ShenmueTree » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:17 am

Bullshit. If that's the case why have all epic console games, ever created been able to be sold new and used up until now?
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby MiTT3NZ » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:26 am

^Because it took less manpower. On the other hand, technology is much cheaper nowadays. Besides, using easy, generic examples is incredibly stupid. What it takes Team A to build Game Y will be completely different to what takes Team B to build Game Z.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby ShenmueTree » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:40 am

MiTT3NZ wrote: ^Because it took less manpower. On the other hand, technology is much cheaper nowadays. Besides, using easy, generic examples is incredibly stupid. What it takes Team A to build Game Y will be completely different to what takes Team B to build Game Z.


Yes, it takes more man power but to say you can't have AAA games that are able to be resold is nonsense.

Explain all the PS4 AAA games announced already. The PS4 supports used games and companies will likely not try to block them.

Also, Jim Sterling retorts. http://www.destructoid.com/used-games-a ... 6227.phtml

Clifford's stance is fairly clear -- games are too expensive, and so the customers must be the ones to compromise. This is presented as our responsibility, our fault even. We "expect" good looking games with high marketing budgets, and publishers are forced to comply.

Except ... that's really not true, and while Bleszinski has actually very adequately highlighted the problem with modern videogame development, he's gone and focused on the wrong part of it.

What really infuriates me about the used game debate is that, when people bring up the stratospheric development and marketing costs, it's treated as though they are noble endeavors, too sacred to be compromised. Rather than ask the question, "Do games need to be this expensive to make?" the question instead becomes, "How can we squeeze more money to keep making very expensive games?"

Why are people like Cliffy B simply accepting the absolutely ridiculous high price of game development as immutable fact, quickly moving on to blame something else instead of examining the problem at its source?

In a good business, the answer to something being too expensive to produce would be to, y'know, make it fucking cheaper to produce. Videogame consoles do this over time -- parts become less costly to manufacture, more efficient to put together. You'll find, with some of the most successful videogames on the market, the same is also very true. It's just that nobody will admit it.

Look at Call of Duty. Arguably the biggest of the big when it comes to gaming. A veritable powerhouse of profit that tends to be the biggest selling title of any given year. Yet, visually, it's always a step behind its peers. Infinity Ward and Treyarch have successfully mined years of cash out of the same game engine this entire generation, producing games noticeable less graphically intense than the competition, yet trouncing the pretenders at market every single bloody time.

Even its "next-gen" title, Call of Duty: Ghosts, is running off an enhanced version of the same old engine, and I bet it turns a very healthy profit regardless.

Then we have the PC. A platform famed for being able to produce better graphics than the Xbox 360 and PS3 ever could, and yet let's look at some of its biggest success stories. Minecraft. Terraria. Hell, Valve and its antique Source Engine seem to be doing just fine, producing games people are absolutely excited for and love to play, despite being nowhere near as expensive to produce or graphically shiny as the Battlefields and the Tomb Raiders of the world.

Even outside of more basic looking games and older engines, we have evidence of smaller teams producing utterly gorgeous games without breaking the bank. I point you to the drop-dead beautiful Metro: Last Light, a game now famous for stunning visuals and an impeccable production value. 4A Games is a humble developer from Kiev, and produced a game that looked as amazing as it did without needing to sell five million copies to survive.

And that's where we come round to the biggest issues facing mainstream game development -- used games and rentals have absolutely bloody nothing to do with the fact that game development is possessed of such total excess that you can't even succeed with millions upon millions of sales under your belt. I utterly defy you to convince me Resident Evil 6 nearly selling six million copies yet still failing to meet expectations could be blamed upon the used game market. When you're selling that much, and still failing to make investors happy, something is fundamentally wrong with the process of videogame production itself, not the imaginary dragons of used games and game rentals that are conjured up as quick and easy scapegoats.

If so-called "AAA" games and the used market actually are incompatible, then I say that's a good friggin' thing. Anything to dispossesses publishers of the notion that they need to keep dumping truckloads of cash into games to the point where they need to sell more copies than the laws of reality allow. Despite what demagogues and mouthpieces will tell you, the market is not demanding all its games be so expensive to produce. As I've said before, the PlayStation, PlayStation 2, and Wii would not have dominated their respective generations if the market put graphics over everything else. People want good games, not these overproduced, pompous, unsustainable exercises in wanton overspending.

It's not our fault games have gotten so expensive, and I resent the implication that it is. The fact this industry seems utterly fucking incapable of taking some damn responsibility for itself continues to disgust me, and I refuse to shoulder the blame for companies that cannot demonstrate one iota of self-reflection. If something you're doing is not working, change what you're doing! Stop trying to bend and break the world around you to try and manufacture an environment where your failed tactics could achieve some perverse form of success.

"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," says Cliff Bleszinski.

"Good," says I. I'll take the used games and rentals. Let the videogame equivalent of inbred aristocracies wither and fucking rot.

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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby MiTT3NZ » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:08 pm

It's not entirely nonsense. As per, he's made a pretty damn stupid series of comments, but the point he was trying to make through said comments are true. It would be next to impossible for a large number of development teams to make a series such as Assassin's Creed as part of a sustainable business model with the pre-owned market being as big as it is, if we are to assume that industry practices remain the same.

This whole argument stems from both the consumer and the producer pointing the finger at one another as opposed to finding a middle ground that can make all parties happy (e.g. DRM on all products, but slashing the RRP)

I understand the concerns of gamers and I understand those of developers and publishers, but ignoring eachother's arguments gets everybody nowhere. And fast. The closest thing gamers have to representation in the industry though is sales figures and the press.

Personally, I feel it's about time there was an industry-recognised "gamers club" or association of sorts with a board of volunteers whose primary focus is to represent gamers as a whole, be it "hardcore" or "casual" gamers.

Until the likes of Cliffy B or the "EA & M$ are the devil!" shut the fuck up and consider the bigger picture though, things will not improve.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby Who Really Cares? » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:58 pm

Yeah I don't think they will ever shut up.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby Axm » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:32 pm

I agree with your point Mitts on having a type of gaming representative organization, I think its what we need these days. At the same time it doesnt take an organization to be able to point out when an executive, company or PR rep spouts nonsense such as this. Blaming your own consumers for how they handle their own property is not how you handle a business. Yes used games effects revenues, but you have to accept that into your business strategy by adjusting your own finances to meet consumer obligations. No car company blames used car sales for a lack of new sales. Its part of the business and they need to give consumers a compelling enough reason to buy the newest model while managing marketing budgets and other aspects.

Also just take one second to think about a game series you initially maybe didnt buy new at retail and instead got to try it from a friend or purchased used. You may have become a fan of that series, you may have then purchased its new release sequel and then 3rd entry, then 4th etc all because you got to try the first while it was more financially obtainable to you. Im sure you recognize this but I think people like Cliff B and MS are failing to recognize the sales power in that. I really think its not just bad for the consumer but in turn bad for the future prospects of a business.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby Stocke » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:50 pm

Microsoft are just coming across as greedy. They're going against the trend in a very negative fashion, and they're struggling to make up good excuses for it.

This sounds like another one of those excuses.

I thought the xbox 360 was bad enough. Needing gold to do anything online, even using things such as Netflix and Hulu. And even when you pay for gold, the amount of advertisements rammed down your throat is phenomenal.

They've actually managed to take it a step further with charging for used games and other forms of DRM.
There's also that thing with the privacy concerns.

Microsoft seriously need to do some backpedaling or they will be in trouble.

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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby Bluecast » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:44 pm

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/13/442633 ... tter-games
Nintendo: If devs are worried about used game sales, they should make better games


Sony and Nintendo are sending a clear message. They are just fine with used games.
Miyamoto also said he believes games should be like toys and be able to relive memories 20 years from now.

Anything Clifford says is a troll greed message so nothing he says means anything anymore.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby MiTT3NZ » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:14 pm

Tbh, that Nintendo quote is just as bad as some of the ones coming from camp MS. The number of quality titles I've purchased second hand only to learn that the team who developed them went under is astonishing. I still reckon the best solution is absolutely no pre-owned games/trade-ins, in exchange for (much) lower prices for brand new copies. Add in Microsoft's "shared cloud install" thing and everybody wins.
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Re: Cliffy B: You can have trade ins or AC style epics

Postby Kenny » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:45 pm

Ryudo wrote: http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/13/442633 ... tter-games
Nintendo: If devs are worried about used game sales, they should make better games


If that's the case, how come some of the games we like don't sell nearly as well as we think they should?

And I still think they need to find a way to monetize used/rental games by thinking of a proper business model with retailers, not even bothering with the eBay or second hand markets cause there's no way in hell to properly regulate those in a reasonable sense.
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