Your Favourite Theories

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Your Favourite Theories

Postby Martin » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:58 am

So we had that PM topic, and whilst going through mine to post one I found someone had heartily congratulated me on a Shenmue III theory I had posted. Been looking for said post of mine, can't find it. I came across quite a few in my search. There was one where someone had a really in-depth theory as to how Baihu is Ziming. Then there were some less serious funny ones.

There have been some great Shenmue theories on these boards, and some not so great ones! Post your favourites.
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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby Axm » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:00 am

Good topic. The Baihu is Ziming theory was disproven previously, but on the surface its easy to assume that. Forgot the details of it though.

I dont have any real solid theory at the momment but ill get back to you.
I do have a hunch though. For some reason I have the thought Ren might die protecting Ryo or someone else important. He's very careless but has alot of heart, so I think he would be a possible marter for a pre-climax in Shenmue 3. Not that I want to see him killed off, just that he seems like a very dispensible character to be used for an emotional response from the player. No doubt Shenmue 3 will bring death.
Shenfa is almost dead on arrival as her perpose is greater than all in service of Ryo's mission.
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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby Thief » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:25 am

I kind of have the feeling that the only character from Shenmue II to make a return in Shenmue III would be Shenhua (other than Ryo of course). I also think that Shenmue III (this is all assuming that more than three Shenmue games are made) would take place entirely in Guilin. I wouldn't be surprised if characters like Nozomi, Ren, Gui Zhang, Joy, Xiuying, et cetera never made another appearance in the games, but I don't know much at all about Yu Suzuki's plans or anything and haven't done much research (any) so I'll probably be told I'm wrong pretty fast :lol:

These are all just hunches, gut feelings, I don't really have any way to back them up...

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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby Who Really Cares? » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:27 am

Ryo is straight.



I actually uploaded a video on my youtube channel that showed that for most the time Baihu was just another street fighter but its been deleted, Think i still have the vid somewhere.

I would have been surprised if Ren, Gui Zhang, and Xiuying never appeared again.
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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby Yokosuka Martian » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:16 pm

He just likes a bit of sailors on the side.



What's your youtube channel?
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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby QWERTY » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:43 pm

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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby Peter » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:47 pm

The one i remember is that Ryo fights all the way through the Chiyoumen HQ and finally gets to LanDi, but its where he learns that Lan Di was a puppet for the "Tentai" of the organisation. Lan Di realises that he was on the wrong side all along, and that he, like Ryo is fatherless. Together they take on the entire Chiyoumen Double Dragon style :lol:

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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby Martin » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:12 am

Peter wrote: The one i remember is that Ryo fights all the way through the Chiyoumen HQ and finally gets to LanDi, but its where he learns that Lan Di was a puppet for the "Tentai" of the organisation. Lan Di realises that he was on the wrong side all along, and that he, like Ryo is fatherless. Together they take on the entire Chiyoumen Double Dragon style :lol:


I like the sound of that! I found my theory! Basically, the theory was (fuck it, IS) that Ryo is so emotionless because he was sexually-abused as a child by Iwao. It ends with Shenmue III starting as Ryo wakes from a dream to find his dad on top of him. The idea was to craft a theory that explained everything, if I remember.

Martin wrote:It is my belief that the truth of Shenmue underlies the beautiful fecade of asian culture, and 1980s espionage. I believe that my theory explains anomalies/inconsistancies within the game, and it's storyline. You've definitely never heard a Shenmue theory quite like this one, so please open your minds, and consider these things (a closed mind is like a closed fist).

To begin with, let's consider the facts (every good theory starts with the facts). What do we have? A young man (Ryo Hazuki), avenging his fathers' (Iwao Hazuki) death, in 1980s Asia (Japan and China, thus far). Said young man embarks upon an adventure across a whole continent. From his little suburban paradice in a little Yokosuka culdesac, the the lush sweeping landscape of Guilin (thus far). It's an adventure, alright. However, I believe that there is more here than meets the eye.

Now, where do I start? I believe that Iwao was an extremely abusive father, who ruled the Hazuki household with an iron fist, ever since Ryo has known him ("Eat your FUCKING carrots!"), up to the day he was killed. Where do I get this idea from? Well, one look at Ryo should be enough. Any psychiatrist could take one look at Ryo, and tell you that he has some very deep-seated problems, stemming from an extremely troubled childhood (anything from mental, to extreme sexual abuse).

You can see it with the way he interects with the world around him. He clearly sees everything through a child's eyes. His sheer sense of wonder at picking random objects up, and scrutinizing them, is textbook child behavior. His fascination with toys is a more obvious example of this. Collecting capsule toys of SEGA games is something children do, and 18-year-old men do neither of the above.

You can also see it in the way he interects with others. Ryo never seems at ease with strangers, especially members of the opposite sex (even ones that he knows). He is often quite rude (unintentionally), and clearly doesn't know how to communicate, on a first-time basis. You don't just go up to complete strangers, asking "Excuse me, where can I find some sailors around here?". Of course, we all know this, and would go about asking the same question very differently.

However, because of Ryo's troubled upbringing, he lacks communication skills for a person of his age. Where you or I would take time out to introduce ourselves, explain our plight (at least a little), and slowly introduce our question, so that it will not seem so worryingly obscure and random, Ryo happily blurts out all these weird and wonderful inquesitions just as they appear to him in his head. 18 year-olds do not act in this manner.

The juxtaposition of Ryo's 'quest' is also a part of my theory. If Ryo is determined enough not to let the sexual advances of gorgeous women get in the way of his mission (he could have at least kissed Nozomi, with tongues, on several occasions, and Joy asked him to stay at her apartment, obviously for sex), then how can things like arcades, capsule toy machines, arm-wrestling, darts (etc..) so easily distract him? Surely sex would be the top of any 18-year-old males' list? Not Ryo. Everything he does and says bleeds innosense.

What I am leading up to, is that Ryo clearly has the mental age of a child, brought about by severe physical, mental, and possibly even sexual abuse, at the hands of his father, Iwao. Sexual abuse? Notice how, not once, not ever does Ryo change his clothing. It's not because he's lazy, or that he doesn't believe in washing, or even simply that he is a slob. No. Ryo is afraid of nudity, specifically; being naked himself.

This irrational fear obvisouly inhibits his ability to wear fresh clothing everyday, and is (in my view) brought on by the sexual abuse he experianced as a child. He thinks, in that little immature mind of his, that if he never takes his clothes off, then daddy can't come into his room at night and sodomise him, whilst stroking his face and whispering "You're daddy's little boy, aren't you?". He thinks that daddy will never be able to hurt him, ever again, if he doesn't get undressed. Doing so brings it all back.

Next on my 'hit-list' is Ryo's mother. Her 'death' fits in perfectly with my theory. I believe she was possibly murdered by Iwao, or left him for another man. Iwao, being the extremely abusive, and probably sexualy distant man that he was, drove his wife to the brink of dispair. For, how can you maintain a loving relationship with a man who not only physically abuses you, but is also non-existant in the bedroom? She couldn't, and left for China (where she almost certainly came from, judging by her belongings in the basement). Either of the above would fit. I'm in two minds of which is the correct version of events, so I mentioned both possibilities.

Now we must consider Ine-san and Fuku-san. They are like polar opposites, both to each other, and to Ryo. Ine-san is the very image of a broken woman. For many years she has lived under constant fear of the master of the house, and has probably been the victim/witness of many beatings, assaults, and general Hazuki household nastiness. She was no doubt the individual charged with the task of explaining away Ryo's odd behavior and physical injuries to his mother. Ryo pities her, and sees her as a maturnal figure, but a pitiful one. She may have even been a sexual slave of Iwao's, though I doubt this.

From the evidence at hand, I believe Iwao was a closet homosexual, who felt it his duty (long standing tradition) to wed with a beautiful woman, and concieve an heir to his legacy. As such, Iwao felt that the birth of Ryo satisfied this 'need'. However, this invariably led to Iwao taking his sexual frustrations out on Ryo, and much of his anger (resultant from his sexual frustrations) out on his wife, and Ine-san/Ryo, to a lesser extent. At this time in Japan, it was definitely not exceptable for a man of Iwao's status to be gay. Iwao was indeed a monster that society created.

While I'm on the subject, I do not believe that Ryo's mother cared much for Ryo, for she would have either killed Iwao (instead of being killed by him as I stated in possibility 1), or taken him with her (instead of just leaving as I stated in possibility 2). Not that she had always been so flippant about her son. Far from it. She most likely spent much of her time in that household, under constant fear for her very life. Suffering from such conditions, for such a prolonged period of time (we're talking years) wears a person down, eventually to a point where they don't care about anything.

This inevitably leeds to Ryo's mother becoming a heavy drinker. Iwao was a man of exacting ruthlessness. He would never allow something like alcohol to cloud his terrifying judgement whilst at home, to make him appear weak. Ryo's mother, on the other hand, needed an escape, and almost certainly found one in alcohol. Anything to numb the pain. The only thing readily available to a Japanese housewife of this period to fit the bill was of course; Alcohol. This leads to a conclusion, almost without doubt, that (at least in her later years, before she died/left) Ryo's mother was hitting the bottle everyday, and hitting it hard. She probably didn't even know she had a son, by the end.

Back to Fuku-san. Herepresents an anomoly in the Hazuki household. In the game, when speaking of Iwao, Fuku-san is the only one who seems truly sad at his passing. Ine-san seems like an emotionally-scarred, physically fragile woman (potentially from years of beatings), who seems asif she should be upset, not that she actually is (of course she isn't). Ryo seems so distant, and emotionally handicapped, both from a life of physical and mental torture, and from conflicting feeling at his father's demise, of what he should feel, and what he actually does. Fuku-san is the odd one out of the household. Why is this..?

Well, I believe that Fuku-san was never exposed to Iwao's evil side. The latest to join the household, I think that Fuku-san represents Iwao's opportunity to change, to start again. For Iwao wasn't truly evil. He wanted to be a good man. It was too late for Ryo, who he had already sodomised and beaten. He could never have a real father/son relationship with Ryo. He could scare Ryo into pretending (and he often did), but they both knew it was a sham. He could never give Ryo back his innocense. However, Fuku-san joining the house presented an opportunity for Iwao to play 'father' with someone who didn't know any better. With a boy who was very ugly, and posed no attractiveness on any sexual level. Iwao revelled in this newfound relationship.

This can be seen in-game, when Fuku-san is generally appalled at Iwao's death. Iwao was like a father to him. A role which Iwao no-doubt cherished and lived to it's fullest, just to feel normal (if only for a little while). He lovingly refers to him as 'Hazuki-sensei', a statement not to be ignored or under-minded. If this is the case, then shouldn't Ryo hate Fuku-san? No. Ryo sees Fuku-san as the only innocent person in the Hazuki household. He reminds him of how he should have been raised. In these solumb thoughts, Ryo finds comfort, if only a little bit. Fuku-san represents the only remaining ounce of purity in that house, which has not been defiled by it's master, or failed to speak out and end Ryo's suffering (something which Ryo holds contemp for his Ine-san, and in particular, his mother).

Nozomi is also another ingredient in this mix, which perpetuates Ryo's self-torment. For, while Ryo is mentally immature, he does recognise that he should be doing certain things. Things like dating, etc. Nozomi represents a small attemped on his part, to reach out for the life that he should be leading, which is downplayed and eventually ruined by Ryo's own haphazardness in these situations, brought on by mental instability, self-loathing, and general feelings of worthlessness. Ryo is in many ways, the complete negative of his father. Where Iwao definitely had a superiority-complex (brought on by his secret homosexualty, and his attemps to compensate and appear normal), Ryo, by contrast, suffers from an inferiority-complex. This is evident throughout his entire adventure, though becomes less prominent, the further into his quest he gets.

So if all this is true, why does Ryo chase Lan Di? Shouldn't he be relieved at his father's murder, and just live the rest of his life a happy man, finally free from the tirrany of Iwao Hazuki? Well, her's where Ryo's sense of self-loathing, brought on by his confused and under-developed emotions comes in. Firstly, Ryo thinks that, if he avenges his father's death, he will show loyalty to his father's legacy (important in Japanese society). Secondly (more importantly), if Ryo succeeds, he will finally have 'beat' his father. Iwao instilled feelings of self-hate, and worthlessness within Ryo. Completing such a long, dangerous quest will prove to Iwao, and to himself that he is not 'worthless', and can accomplish great things. Doing so would mean that Ryo no longer lives in his father's terrifying shadow. Maybe then, the nightmares, the self-loathinfg, and constant feeling of utter dread will go away. Lan Di is just the key. The treasure at the end of the rainbow, if you will.

As Ryo's journey takes him to Hong Kong and beyond, we see him begin to come out of his shell, the invisible barrier he uses to keep the world at bay, to protect himself. He starts to show feelings of indepenace, and self-worth. In Shenmue II, partakes in things such as gambling, street fighter (for money, not self-defence), etc. Things which his father would never permit. Ryo begins, if only slightly, to rebel against Iwao, against his memory, and what he stood for. The cave sequence near the end of the second game is further evidence of this. Ryo is alone, at night, with a pretty girl. Sure, nothing happens, and Ryo is still obviously battling his demons at this point (otherwise he'd have shagged her), but he is slowly recovering from years of abuse.

Normally, Ryo would never ever allow himself to get into this situation, with an attractive member of the opposite sex. Remember the several occasions where he practically shuns Nozomi, or the time he turns down the opportunity of staying at a gorgeous biker babes' home, in favour of a cold lonely bed, in a unfriendly hotel, run by a shady man obsessed with gambling. This is the first time that Ryo begins to allow nature to take it's course, the first time that he is not outwardly afraid of his feelings towards the opposite sex, or their advances towards him. He is at this point, beginning to understand his feelings of sexual attraction towards women, instead of running away from them.

This (I believe) is brought on by his slowly increasing feelings of independance and self-worth. Also, Shen Hua is not a member of everday society, that which shunned him and cursed him to an eighteen year nightmare. Shen Hua presents no threat to him, only feelings of awe and wonder. She is also innocent, naive, and quite child-like. She reminds him of himself, and he feels very comfortable with her. The cave sequence is the first time his 'shell' truly starts to crack. The first time he really starts to open up to someone.

Which brings me to my theory, in it's ultimate form. My theory ends in one of two possibilities, of which the reader (you) must decide for youselves which you believe in. Given everthything that has been said, Ryo's journey is not to avenge his father at all, but to prove his own worth, and to 'beat' his father. If he succeeds, daddy can never hurt him. Never again. Then the nightmares, the self-loathing, everything. It'll all stop, and Ryo will be able to get on with his life, and grow as a person, and not fear that which cannot hurt him anymore. That is the first, and most immediate possibility.

The second, and more 'out there' possibility, is the one I happen to adhere to, for it provides all the same answers that Actual Theory Possibility 1 does, while answering/addressing some anomolies which 'Possibility 1 does not. I believe, that, all said and true to this point, the entire journey is fake. I believe it is nothing but a dream. I believe Ryo is dreaming his adventure. It would explain how Ryo magically arrives in Hong Kong in less than 10 minutes from finishing Shenmue I, to starting Shenmue II. More importantly, it would explain how he can spontaneously and flawlessly communicate with the chinese-speaking Hong Kong/Kowloon/Guilin populus.

It would in fact, provide a good answer for the whole journey, and it's general surreal quality, and lack of realism. Dreams often become wilder and more strange the further you get into them. I believe the introduction of supernatural occurances is no coinsidence, and it merely the consequence of a dream, taking his natural course. Ryo getting beaten to a pulp by a bunch of punks, then waking up safe and sound on Wong's boat seems very unlikely to me. That, and the event's inconsistancy with the events that transpired at the end of the first game, namely, the 70 man battle. If Ryo can take on and beat 70 men (admittedly with the help of Guizang), then surely a few punks should pose little problem.

Who placed all those planks? Why was that jumbo jet suicidely skimming the tops of the fucking buildings? These strange occurances, and many more (magical mirrors, mystical trees), are (in my opinion) simply the result of a dream taking it's natural course, becoming more obscure as it goes on. Shenmue is merely a dream which Ryo is having. Ryo lives in utter dread of his father, and his dreams are the only place where he can truly be free. Iwao can't take his dreams away from him. The end of Shenmue II (at the point where it is at it's most obscure) seems to be the end of the dream. Everything goes all strange looking, everything stops, the sound fades away. I think these symbolise Ryo slowly drifting out of sleep and into conciousness.

As such, I predict that Shenmue III, if ever released, will start with Ryo opening his eyes, and seeing his father's shadowy figure over him, carressing his face and softly whispering "You're daddy's little boy..". This would also explain why Shenmue III has never been released, and will never be released, as the game/concept becomes to outlandish for SEGA execs to condone, and give the green light to. My theory explains everything. All the inconsistancies, Ryo's lack of character, all the symbolism, everything. Everything. I believe there's not a Shenmue-related question you could pose which my theory couldn't provide a good possible answer to. I don't think you could say that about any other Shenmue theory. Hence the title.

Discuss.


Damn, I was awesome back then!

:lol:

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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby redline » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:40 am

not really a theory but a long time ago i said here that i thought shenmue 3 might incorporate magic into its story (not that i wanted it tho).. a few members said it would be terrible if that happened - then the shenmue online clip popped up showing people shooting fireballs :lol:


would be cool if ryo saved the world (ie stopped lan di from resurrecting an evil demon or whatever hes going to do) but at the end of Shenue3, ryo some how gets sent back in time to the dojo so he can save his father.
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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby Who Really Cares? » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:56 am

Anyone who didn't see magic coming into it after II's ending should just give up on the series. I don't see Ryo doing magic but it was clear even from 1 that magic would play a role.
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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby MiTT3NZ » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:59 am

I remember Martin's theory. Vividly.
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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby Ziming » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:20 pm

It was apparent magic would play a role in the series as it's seen in the PB intro. PB disc came with VF3TB back in November 1998. The magical elements later in the story was likely planned out during the Saturn era.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ6-QRThA8A[/youtube]
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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby MiTT3NZ » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:29 pm

I don't think magic will be incorporated in the way that people instantly assume it. There's a lot of East v West vibes, and it'll probably be a case of "don't be so quick to dismiss your heritage", with ancient Far Eastern myths/legends being true in some form or another.
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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby Peter » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:59 pm

I have always been one of the very few who enjoyed the magical elements of Shenmue, and looked forward to seeing more as the games went on. I remember debating that the resurrection of the Chiyou was in fact literal, as opposed to mythical, and that scene from Project Berkley with the tortoise plinths and huge buddah head lighting up has always been one of my favourites in the franchise. I still hope to see it one day.
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Re: Your Favourite Theories

Postby Yokosuka Martian » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:08 pm

Holy sh-. I have never see those Project Berkley clips until now. Looks badass.
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