BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts!

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BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts!

Postby Bluecast » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:22 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgFWtK2AoPk[/youtube]
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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby KiBa » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:23 am

"Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in your name, and cast out devils in your name, and done many miracles in your name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby ys » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:06 am

Haha, My Little Pony. "I'm not sure".

Then we have astronomer Carl Sagan putting things in perspective.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wupToqz1e2g[/youtube]
I had a discussion with a religious guy going from door to door some weeks ago. I stayed polite but he got annoyed so I asked him eventually how much science he studied to be able to dismiss it for sure. I know more about general religious principles than vice versa which put me in a better position to have an opinion I said. He started about science not knowing everything either. I said : "no of course not". But I mentioned his glasses, modern surgery, GPS based on relativity theory, smartphones, pc's etc. based on quantum mechanics and so on. I told him that I didn't exclude the possibility of some force but really doubted a literal humanlike figure meddling in our affairs all day long. He didn't get that stuff so I ended it there.

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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby KiBa » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:33 am

Well, to be fair, you don't judge ideas by people who don't have a clear picture of them, even if they hold them. For example, to the intelligent, it's the "forces" of nature responsible for glasses, modern surgery, GPS based on relativity theory, smartphones, pc's etc. based on quantum mechanics and so on, that are in need of explanation, and are thus the very objects of God's creation. It's not as if they think God made a primitive world full of primitive people who slowly but surely discovered a bigger Truth behind God's back.

Moreover, no religion that has survived history thinks God is a human-like figure. Rather, they are explicit that people are God-like figures. That is, they say we are theomorphic, not that God is anthropomorphic, and at least among the orthodox Christians, Catholics mostly, they have always maintained that theomorphism is with respect to the mind alone. Hence, it is quite impossible for, say, a Catholic to believe in a "god" resembling Zeus or a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Rather, they are talking about the singular, eternal, and unchanging ground of all intelligibility and order (that which makes things true and false), from which this changing universe of multiples perpetually emanates.

Protestant rebels, such as those in the above video, left mainstream Christianity only a few centuries ago. They do not represent the previous 1500 years of orthodox thought.


Point? We've got to be fair to all sides, rather than flicking strawmen for shitzngiggles.

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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby ys » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:23 am

He didn't use his book as religious guidance in life but as fact. So when I said that I didn't believe in a strictly literal interpretation he started getting edgy. I always stay polite but due to his arrogant attitude I continued discussing. With human-like I just meant appearance by the way. I didn't make that clear.

I am aware that this is not mainstream though. I mean, the first person proposing the Big Bang theory was a Belgian priest but these guys are the funny ones :P

By the way, the nature of the fundamental forces is actually one of the big areas of research in physics. They know that it needs explaining and try to find why constants have their exact value, why symmetry between forces broke down leading to stars and life,... GPS and so on are "just" byproducts, practical applications, out of that earlier abstract research so it is not the main goal from the start.

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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby St. Elmo's Fire » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:16 pm

ys wrote: Stuff.


That was a highly intelligent post. :tup:
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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby Bluecast » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:24 pm

Ys Carl Sagan is on of me heroes. Blue dot always makes me smile and I forgot to play that. You have no idea hw much better that made me feel. Thanks. Even as a semi Mormon I still put science first. Sagan is the main season I got interested in space and quantum physics. I only have a basic grasp on it but enough to love it.

I do want to say minus the nutjobs I posted. (and there is a lot of them sadly) Yet still in the minority. Truth is not always a good thing. Sure there is the saying ignorance is bliss. I just know some people believe so dear into something it makes them a better person ad helps them help others. I have known many like that. The truth of their religion does not matter. It's what it does for them to be better people and make surroundings a better place. An idea sometimes is more important than truth. Yes sometimes an idea is more dangerous as we See in the video.

That said.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE_OehRLH3s[/youtube]

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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby ys » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:23 pm

You're welcome man. You know, I think that it is among the most profound statements I ever heard. He's basically pointing out how dumb it is to mess up what we have for, basically, trivial matters. He was really a great public face for astronomy and maybe science in general.
About religion and science. I actually don't think that there HAS to be a conflict if religion is seen as a personal guide. They both have their own value in a way. I mentioned the priest and the Big Bang idea there and he didn't see a conflict when he tried to find out more about the universe. When the Pope asked him about it he even refused to link it to religion. It's very ironic that the theory is now seen as something against faith by more conservative groups.
I personally think that problems arise when there is a need to expand, try to convert others etc. It's more a political tool then.

There's a lot of truth in what you wrote there by the way. Sometimes not knowing can indeed be good like the example you gave. Nice video by the way and I'm saving that picture :P

Btw. Thanks SEF.
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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby KiBa » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:08 pm

ys wrote: By the way, the nature of the fundamental forces is actually one of the big areas of research in physics. They know that it needs explaining and try to find why constants have their exact value, why symmetry between forces broke down leading to stars and life


Metaphysical thinking brackets every thing as a whole as needing explanation till you get to something that obviously explains itself, so you would have to ask what the forces are, or more precisely, what the ultimate source of all phenomena is, such that there was a state of symmetry between proposed unobservable things that mathematically could have unfolded as the universe we experience. Hence, from this perspective, all such questions in physics are not "explanation," but only "description," falling short of an explanation that totally satisfies Reason.

Moreover, nobody knows what science is, nobody knows what theories are, nobody knows what kind of knowledge relates to reality and what doesn't. No one even knows if there are laws of nature, what can cause what, or what depends on what, or what substance is, or even if we ought to trust anything but our direct experience with all its content and common sense because it's really all we undoubtedly have. There is a popular conception that science is a well-defined thing, but the truth is, nobody knows what scientific methods are effectual and which are not, and there's thousands of mutually exclusive ways of looking at it. The newspapers tell us that science is just the assumption of materialism, but that is no less a metaphysical view than the notion that the whole universe is in the mind. Both rely on models of unobservable phenomena. Nobody even knows whether scientific models are legitimate science in the first place. There has been a silent civil war raging for several decades between those who think science should be the study of all the relationships between directly observable phenomena alone (the orthodox empiricists), and those who think it proper to propose and study models of unobservables like atoms, subatomic realities, space-time, or laws of nature (the pop physicists like Einstein, Feynman, Hawking, etc), and connecting those hypothetical models with mathematics, forming cosmologies (Big Bang, Dark Matter, Black Holes, Quantum Physics...).

But many scientists don't like the idea of using scientific methods on purely mathematical models of unobservable phenomena because they believe that to be metaphysics and not physics at all. Empiricists have long accused the pop physicists of dealing with imaginary things, proving only what would be the case if such and such a model were true, rather than focusing on relationships between directly observable phenomena. And, in truth, technoscience relies only on observable phenomena. So, there is a very real question as to the usefulness of theoretical physics and whether it is even scientific at all, or rather a metaphysical explication of a materialist model supported by mathematical relationships that may have nothing to do with reality, as none of this work (for example, quantum mechanics) uniquely demonstrates anything useful for prediction or the development of new technology. They are very sensitive about this, so they started this memetic pseudo-war against theism to keep the journalists away from the realist/anti-realist scientific crisis. It's all quite fascinating, if you look into it, since the popular confidence in the myth of a "Science" that is a magic method for knowing is almost entirely false, and it's like a big secret that everyone just pretends isn't so. There's too much money, power, and glory involved.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scien ... #UndTheDat

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/const ... mpiricism/

The sad fact is, nobody knows anything with certainty. Not even a little bit. There aren't even any degrees of knowledge. Nobody is enlightened at all, and there's not a thing anyone can do about it. It's all just phenomena and faith.

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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby Martin » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:01 pm

My question about religion is simply "why are there so many?". They can't all be correct, yet the followers of each one believe their specific doctrine, and no other.

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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby Master Kyodai » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:02 pm

"My little pony" is coming directly from hell!

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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby Kenny » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:35 pm

Martin wrote: My question about religion is simply "why are there so many?". They can't all be correct, yet the followers of each one believe their specific doctrine, and no other.


Its like a fashion statement.
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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby Riku Rose » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:50 pm

Martin wrote: My question about religion is simply "why are there so many?". They can't all be correct, yet the followers of each one believe their specific doctrine, and no other.


Brainwashing. God is just like Santa Claus but some parents just want their kids to keep believing forever.When you was 6 that douche on the playground couldn't convince you Santa wasn't real because your parents keep telling you his coming and to leave cookies out for him. It's just instead of cookies they tell you to go talk to God with your hands like a shark fin and never have the chat about it's them that made you..
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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby KiBa » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:10 pm

Martin wrote: My question about religion is simply "why are there so many?". They can't all be correct, yet the followers of each one believe their specific doctrine, and no other.


My answer, for fun:

Because Being (Being as such, without respect to anything in particular, but the fact of pure undeniable existence reflected upon) is such a profound mystery, every human being, and consequently every culture, responds to that reflection in different ways. The shallow reflection is to believe in superhumans or Olympians that are nothing but immortal people, arrived at by analogy: we are the only things that think and are conscious of metaphysical reflection (not necessarily humans as such, but all rational intelligences), therefore, the Divine must contain at least what is in us. And this is because we exist in constant flux; the past disappears as the future unfolds, continually. So, we all get the idea of something that IS eternally as a counterpoint to our transience. Hence, all the deep religious traditions posit one of two possibilities: in a nutshell - God as the One Eternal Pure Being, and all things, all multiplicity, which is finity (including us), participate in His infinite and eternal Being as dependent limitations (Thomism/Western thought); or we exist as modes of Pure Being (pantheism/Hinduism). The third possibility is not rational per se, and that is Buddhism, which states that every experience is an illusion, and the truth is an ultimate abstraction. You could call this infinite Pure Being, but the Buddhist would say that our rational conclusions are illusions too, so you can't think anything at all. Crude atheism, per se, as opposed to pantheism, is the simple (not reflective, non-rational) negative of believing in Olympians. It just posits a universe without Olympians (as experience suggests) and says nothing else about it. The second you reflect on it, you've got to choose between theism or pantheism, or reject everything and cease thinking to hopefully achieve enlightenment. The triune possibilities.

The above, you'll find if you wish, is an accurate summary of thousands of years of human metaphysical yearnings and reasoning. The yearning must be explained, if you care about rational consistency and coherence. The variety of religions are mostly different methods to approach the same truth discussed above, but the few great religions have a historical basis. You either believe their account of the entrance of the Divine into history in pursuit of man (revelation), or not. So, it is a question as to which touches your soul: does the image of a bloody Christ with a crown a thorns on his head, staring at you, deeply affect you? If so, you might believe. Everything else is a matter of intelligent historical judgment, as to which group is the true Church (holy assembly). At any rate, you choose like you choose anything else: you read and ponder, see if anything reveals itself to you, and changes you. That's what "philosophy" is supposed to be: progressive advancement towards the ultimate goal. It's not relative, it's just that what is more important than the fact that there seem to be many different religions, is the fact that there are even more people, and each has to choose to believe something in his own way. But the main thing is to transcend simplistic conceptions of religion and religious ideas. Ban simple religions from your worldview, and examine the actual meaningful content, such as Mystery, the proper categorization of knowledge, to look at the universe from the highest possible perspective and try to get a good handle on all the possibilities of the big picture. Without this practice, human life is reduced to playing with pointless images, and that's boring. Either every experience is a sign pointing to the Truth, or everything is meaningless. This is the most fundamental choice, that is, how to interpret life, and these two are the only conceivable possibilities.
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Re: BLOOD OF JESUS! Every bible to come with a box of donuts

Postby mue 26 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:37 pm

KiBa wrote:First post with lots of stuff


This was actually a pretty good post.

I don't really have any problem whatsoever with traditional empirical based scientific study, or the study of quantum physics. Indeed I believe both forms of study can provide us with insight. But what I think Kiba's post puts across quite well, is 1. how very little we can actually say we fully understand about our universe through the use of the logical and rational parts of our brain alone. And 2. Just how political and contradictory the world of "science" can be. It certainly isn't as simple as the "OK this is good science and this is bad science" that some will try have you believe. In fact it's that very attitude that hampers the true spirit of scientific study and discovery. The world is crammed full of intellectual arrogance and selfish motivations.

they have always maintained that theomorphism is with respect to the mind alone.


This is interesting, as this idea sounds almost as unbelievable to me as does the idea that God actually looks like us. God thinks in the same manner as our mind's of matter think? Our minds that cause us so much trouble? It doesn't quite hang together for me. I find the teaching found in many eastern spiritual philosophies that in actually fact, we all are a part of God, but not in our flesh or our minds, but our souls- to resonate more with me.

My question about religion is simply "why are there so many?". They can't all be correct, yet the followers of each one believe their specific doctrine, and no other.


Of course they can all be correct. Just different paths up the same mountain. In fact, if you look at all of the worlds spiritual faiths, you will find an incredible amount of parallels between them all. They usually just worded slightly differently. Look at the concept that a life (as lived through the senses) is suffering as found in Buddhism and so many strains of Hindu spiritual philosophy, and then compare that to the Catholic teaching of original sin, and how bodily temptations should be resisted. See the similarities. Same thing roughly with the belief that this world is an illusion and the idea of Heaven as a truer reality, I guess. Indeed these ideas in Catholicism are often credited as coming from dear old Plato (who if I recall correctly, believed in a form of reincarnation, funnily enough), but you can find these same ideas everywhere. Though in my opinion the Catholic church lost touch with the truth in many of it's ancient teachings, while remaining annoyingly dogmatic about things which should of long been done away with, and so ended up with a kind of worst of both worlds situation. But my complaints with Catholicism are of a practical kind mainly.

This is not to say that you must now believe in idea of original sin or that life is suffering or anything. But you can see that this concept was perhaps helpful for some (though I'm not going to lie, I don't actually think it's very helpful when considered in context of Catholicism, it's why we ended up with so many pedo priests...though there are plenty of well recorded cases of Buddhist sexual scandals too to be fair. So that idea of rejecting your senses can really go very wrong if taught incorrectly. ) Other faiths like esoteric Shinto (while sharing many other similarities with Buddhism, Indian spiritual philosophies, and the old pagan faiths) reject the idea of life as suffering, but they still get one to the same place, through their own rituals and practises. The core ideas are all usually incredibly similar and overlap, it's just differences in method and terminology mostly. And then people start arguing about pointless nonsense and then people get distracted, and so on.

They are just different paths to the same place as far as I see. Some people may reach advances in the spiritual journey in different ways. Some may achieve success through using the body and practising Yoga, some may reach it through studying certain ideas, or some through meditation, or some through compassion, or whatever the hell works for you. I don't think we really need large organised religions personally, I think we can all get there our own ways, but I can understand they can be helpful to some (And very unhelpful to others). It's just about what liberates you.

or we exist as modes of Pure Being (pantheism/Hinduism). The third possibility is not rational per se, and that is Buddhism, which states that every experience is an illusion, and the truth is an ultimate abstraction. You could call this infinite Pure Being, but the Buddhist would say that our rational conclusions are illusions too, so you can't think anything at all


Well, your not entirely accurate here. As most of the oldest "Hindu" spiritual philosophies that I am familiar with, would agree with Buddhists that this physical world is an illusion, but they just often happen to believe that we are indeed all part of an ultimate "pure being/ conciousness"" or "god". And much like Buddhists they often believe that this unification can only come about through a complete transcendence of the mind and all forms of thought. Hence Yoga was originally developed and codified as a practical means of achieving this aim.

I think a proper long and rambling mue post has overdue for a while now :lol:
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