XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby Luvly KM » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:26 am

mue 26 wrote:

Yeah, this is my viewpoint too. I never quite get it when people get all worked up about sequels or remakes of old films, and are like "don't ruin my memories!". How does making a shitty sequel or remake- no matter how shitty it is- soil the good memories of the original? I mean, yeah the remake of The Thing was a load of poo, but did it in any way affect my love of the original? No. How possibly could it? And for this reason, I really don't care either way if there's a Blade Runner sequel, or a Star wars 7, or an Akira live action movie (even if it's set in New York!) or whatever. I'll just take it on its own merits, and who knows there is a slight chance it could actually be good, or so bad it'll be funny, so why not?


Yes because it cheapens the universe of the original. Simply put.


To say more I recently went to an all-night film festival where they were showing the original Thing, It was the best film of the night... In a vacuum, the remake does not directly up-hinge my appreciation of it as a piece of media, but by adding an addendum to the created universe, specifically after the initial time of its creation and all the underpinning culture it inferred... It does very subtly dampen the overall quality of the IP.

Watching Kurt Russell et al I could now envision the Norwegian base before the incident, its cleanliness, its 2011sharpness, Mr Eco, Norwegians speaking English. It was all there in my subconscious mind impacting how I now viewed the events of the original, directly or not... The Thing had now been framed 'differently' and it is that intangible, almost unspeakable difference which I dislike.

The original film was already complete in 'my mind' and no amount of addition could improve that... all additions after the moment of 'intended completion' are moot...

of course, talking about my mind and viewpoint of a piece of media is always subjective but it is this subjectivity which propels art. There is no such thing and objective quality: When people release art or media into the public domain, it is they who then own it...


ALSO, by adding to the THING universe, it is saying that The Original Thing was incomplete or not good enough in certain respects. Maybe it wasn't, maybe new technology can improve certain things but that is beside the point... All art, all medias reflect the zeitgeist of their creation, it is what makes them what they are. And you simply cannot remake the past. All things should be left there as we move forward with originality or clever re-appropriation (adapting novels, philosophical ideas, debates etc...)

I used to be relaxed about remakes but when you really study media theory and all its subtext you begin to see how abhorrent the idea of a remake is... It is IP rape.... trading on an established name for money simply because they can't be creative enough to come up with something original...I am being purposefully harsh there because many remakes are created with the right intentions but i am more talking about the ideal of remakes....

Film Adapted from film is like eating your own tail. Thematic cannibalism is fine, make a film about cabin fever and trust but don't borrow wholesale...


I really don't think any sequel could be as annoying as a life time wondering just what Yu had planned, but was never able to give to us. Eff all this cautious nonsense, you get nothing being cautious.
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Achievements, dumbing down, short cuts, asset reuse..... Put it this way.. Shenmue III wouldn't come with material detailing every NPC's height, weight, blood type, routine etc.... It would just have random, reused NPC's spouting random one liners.

You make a valid point about Shenmue already having a designed or intended ending which has not been released. It is a genuine, soul destroying shame that it couldn’t see the light but then I think it would be more soul destroying if it was released and had barely anything in common with its ancestors. Shenmue in name and narrative only would not be Shenmue.
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby Let's Get Sweaty » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:56 pm

Luvly KM wrote:Achievements, dumbing down, short cuts, asset reuse..... Put it this way.. Shenmue III wouldn't come with material detailing every NPC's height, weight, blood type, routine etc.... It would just have random, reused NPC's spouting random one liners.

You make a valid point about Shenmue already having a designed or intended ending which has not been released. It is a genuine, soul destroying shame that it couldn’t see the light but then I think it would be more soul destroying if it was released and had barely anything in common with its ancestors. Shenmue in name and narrative only would not be Shenmue.


You make quite a few assumptions there, unless you're just playing devil's advocate with a hypothetical worst case scenario. None of us knows quite how it would be made, as we don't know who'd be making it and under what circumstances. But even if, for example, the NPCs were all random and re-used, that's a relatively small concession to make in return for a conclusion to the series.

For me it was never about the technical feats. That's not what keeps me talking about the game a decade later. On that front, Shenmue III doesn't have to be perfect. Shenmue and Shenmue II weren't perfect. As long as it has the heart of the originals - and I'm perfectly willing to believe it would, with Suzuki overseeing the completion of his most celebrated legacy - then I won't ask for (more) miracles.

It's highly improbable that the game would be commissioned without using at least Yakuza as a measuring stick, and I'd be happy with that. Beyond that would be a bonus. It may not be as progressive as the originals, but it can't be, and that's not the be all and end all when you've got a worldwide fanbase living with the prospect of a cliffhanger never being resolved.

There's a lot within reason that I'm willing to accept for that sense of release, and taking everything into account, I've no genuine concern that my expectations would not be met, much less that my appreciation of the originals would be tarnished. That would take more than I can realistically imagine, outside of the lighthearted cynicism we all indulge in from time to time.
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby KiBa » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:21 pm

Sorry to cruft your rubric, but the Kurt Russell Thingymagig was not the "original" Thing. It was a remake. Now, here's a sociological experiment for ya: see if the original original Thing irreparably corrupts your vision of the remake, such that its gets double-teamed from both sides, by the remake of the remake and the original original. Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.......
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby Who Really Cares? » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:40 pm

Just to point out Shenmue II re used some NPC faces. The level of detail from 1 was already dipping back then.
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby DreamcastPast » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:05 pm

Even 'The Thing' 1982's title design is a very close copy of 'The Thing' 1951's title design... But if it wasn't for remakes then we wouldn't have the splendor of the Kurt Russell version...
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby mue 26 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:44 pm

ALSO, by adding to the THING universe, it is saying that The Original Thing was incomplete or not good enough in certain respects. Maybe it wasn't, maybe new technology can improve certain things but that is beside the point... All art, all medias reflect the zeitgeist of their creation, it is what makes them what they are. And you simply cannot remake the past. All things should be left there as we move forward with originality or clever re-appropriation (adapting novels, philosophical ideas, debates etc...)

I used to be relaxed about remakes but when you really study media theory and all its subtext you begin to see how abhorrent the idea of a remake is... It is IP rape.... trading on an established name for money simply because they can't be creative enough to come up with something original...I am being purposefully harsh there because many remakes are created with the right intentions but i am more talking about the ideal of remakes....

Film Adapted from film is like eating your own tail. Thematic cannibalism is fine, make a film about cabin fever and trust but don't borrow wholesale...


Well...I hate to say it, but Kiba seems to have taken all the wind out of the "remake is IP rape" argument. As he is indeed right, the movie that you were so disturbed about being remade....was already a remake...

Not that I necessarily disagree with your point about wholesale remake's being poo generally speaking, however, my point was just: So what if they are poo? Forget about "IP rape" and all these dramatic terms, and you'll find that your appreciation for the original doesn't change one iota. If you just treat a modern or foreign remake for what it is- an entirely different piece of work- how can it bother anyone? If you saw some unofficial and cheap fan made remake of The Thing, would it have bothered you as much? It seems to me, that under certain circumstances people seem to (almost deliberately) make the task of distinguishing between two different pieces of work harder than it should be. Rip offs will always exist, it's how you view them that matters.

However, this is quite all beside the point, as in Shenmue's case the situation is a bit different. So OK, I admit, if it turns out that in Shenmue 3 Yu Suzuki's long awaited end game is Ryo reaching the end of his journey only to find it was only all a dream, yeah, it would be more difficult not to have your perception of the last two games altered (though it still wouldn't effect my love. As I seem to be quite good at not letting anything tarnish the things I love), but at least I would know that I had experienced Yu's saga in it's entirety. At least I now know.

But in reality, predicting what the game would be like is pointless, because none of us know what it would be like. Wouldn't you be willing to risk the unknown, to risk the chance of bitter disappointment or total elation, for Shenmue 3? Is it not cowardly to desire the story remain incomplete, just in case your hopes are dashed?

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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby Bluecast » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:01 pm

If a remake is poo but the original is great but most people only know of the remake then you in deep. It can't expand and grow.

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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby Luvly KM » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:02 pm

i still stand behind my point that remakes do tangentially effect the enjoyment of 'originals'.

perhaps psychologically similar to how if you watch a film of a novel and then read the book for the first time, you imagine the actors of the film as you read... Our minds just like to bleed and crossover information, especially when they take up the same 'memory slot' or filename....

I say this though and i am just as much of a fan of Soderberg's Solaris as Tarkovsky's. Both are valid and wholly different explorations of the novel. This thematic cannibalism i implore...

Gah, i think my main beef is when you know that the remake is made for the moneys, to fill a summer blockbuster slot at the multiplex, the perennial new lick of paint will do.... Most remakes are for this hence my distaste of them.
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby Bluecast » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:05 pm

Also The Thing 1982 was a remake of the 1951 film. 2011 was a prequel to the 82 film.
1951 version is considered a classic and the 1982 is considered one of the best remakes of all time. SO it's an example how both can work.
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby mue 26 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:15 pm

perhaps psychologically similar to how if you watch a film of a novel and then read the book for the first time, you imagine the actors of the film as you read... Our minds just like to bleed and crossover information, especially when they take up the same 'memory slot' or filename....


I know what you mean, but I rarely even seem to suffer from this (though I know many do). For example, I had watched the 80's TV series adaptation (which I enjoyed) of James Clavell's Shogun before I read the book. But once I started reading the book I found myself envisioning the characters differently. Bizarrely even when there was relatively little difference between the description of a character's appearance in the book and the actor playing the role in the series.

I think over the years I have just trained my mind out of these irritating habits?
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby Luvly KM » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:28 pm

mue 26 wrote:

Well...I hate to say it, but Kiba seems to have taken all the wind out of the "remake is IP rape" argument. As he is indeed right, the movie that you were so disturbed about being remade....was already a remake...

Not that I necessarily disagree with your point about wholesale remake's being poo generally speaking, however, my point was just: So what if they are poo? Forget about "IP rape" and all these dramatic terms, and you'll find that your appreciation for the original doesn't change one iota. If you just treat a modern or foreign remake for what it is- an entirely different piece of work- how can it bother anyone? If you saw some unofficial and cheap fan made remake of The Thing, would it have bothered you as much? It seems to me, that under certain circumstances people seem to (almost deliberately) make the task of distinguishing between two different pieces of work harder than it should be. Rip offs will always exist, [u]it's how you view them that matters.

However, this is quite all beside the point, as in Shenmue's case the situation is a bit different. So OK, I admit, if it turns out that in Shenmue 3 Yu Suzuki's long awaited end game is Ryo reaching the end of his journey only to find it was only all a dream, yeah, it would be more difficult not to have your perception of the last two games altered (though it still wouldn't effect my love. As I seem to be quite good at not letting anything tarnish the things I love), but at least I would know that I had experienced Yu's saga in it's entirety. At least I now know.

But in reality, predicting what the game would be like is pointless, because none of us know what it would be like. Wouldn't you be willing to risk the unknown, to risk the chance of bitter disappointment or total elation, for Shenmue 3? Is it not cowardly to desire the story remain incomplete, just in case your hopes are dashed?

A victory is only sweet when it wasn't certain.


Curtly, i was mainly using The Thing as a general example of how remakes can impact and subtextually frame 'originals', whether you want them to or not. I stand by this. As Im sure Kurt Russels man wig greatly effects the integrity of the 50's Thing.


Also, your two paragraphs about shenmue are very good (you continue to display a balanced head). One half of me is playing devils advocate (although I do firmly dissuade from most modern-day videogame tropes) the other is taking ownership of my subjective experience of Shenmue... It ended at 2. perfectly.
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby Bluecast » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:34 pm

I have accepted we will most likely never get Shenmue III but it's still painful. I'd even accept another badly edited movie again at this point. I have now fallen for 3 franchises in gaming that have stories that ended on a cliffhanger at II and all 3 are not likely to get a 3rd game.
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby mue 26 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:27 pm

Also, your two paragraphs about shenmue are very good (you continue to display a balanced head)


Oh ahaha, stop it now, your too kind. Me, balanced headed? Pshh, Never. Do tell me more...

One half of me is playing devils advocate (although I do firmly dissuade from most modern-day videogame tropes) the other is taking ownership of my subjective experience of Shenmue... It ended at 2. perfectly.


I do feel you on these points, especially the last part about taking ownership over your Shenmue experience. As really, we should be incredibly happy with what we've already got, and if Shenmue 2 is really to be the end of the saga, then it did truly end perfectly, when viewed in the correct light. But even though it's been over a decade now, I can't quite accept that fully yet, I still hold out too much hope (even it's foolish and painful) for a Shenmue 3 to be able see things exactly that way right now. I guess I try to find the balance between being fully content with what we've already got, yet still remaining optimistic about the last part being on the way. Maybe it's not possible to be fully content with what we've got when I'm still expecting more, but I try.
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby myshtuff » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:46 pm

Ryudo wrote:
Who Really Cares? wrote:
Ryudo wrote: Fuck Xbox mag. No one reads console mags anymore and dying off so they write whit like this to get attention.



This article was actually posted March last year and 2 mags/newspapers still sell well over here.

ALL Print media is losing subs and hurting it will be soon before those drop as well. It's inevitable. Like or not that is a fact. All print media is dying off. I hate it as I prefer print media. IMO in 5 years time I best less than 5% of content will be on print media. Also why post a article from over a year ago? Esp one just to piss a few cult gamers off?


Didn't Nintendo Power just announce they are doing their last issue this December?
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Re: XBox mag: Why Shenmue III is a bad idea

Postby Shotaro Kaneda » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:57 am

mue 26 wrote: I really don't care either way if there's a Blade Runner sequel, or a Star wars 7, or an Akira live action movie (even if it's set set in New York!) or whatever.


Shenmue sequel would (should) be made by the same guys, so wouldn't go off on a random tangent, Akira in New York is a terrible idea, I don't honestly see what they expect to achieve with it, if it was such a great idea Japan would have made it by now, like they did with La Blue Girl... :-s

There are times you see a film which is a "sequel" or "remake" and it is so removed from the original story it should just be a seperate story, why try and use the name of something you have no connection with? The name Akira isn't you're average American high schooler name is it? You might as well call it "Johnny goes crazy"

Films like Get Carter, My Sassy Girl, there is no point using the name of the original film as the film they made wasn't the same

If people remake films, fine, but use a title which makes sense - Infernal Affairs = The Departed

Also which version of The Thing do you mean as a remake? The 2011 film was a prequel to the 1982 film, which was a remake of The Thing from Another World
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