Nelson Mandela

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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby Kenny » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:21 pm

Yeah, once I found out about this guy years ago, I was like "how is this guy even celebrated?"

It's the exact same thing with Mother Theresa and Che Guevara. Once you find out the shit they did, it makes you wonder why the fuck people even celebrate these people in the first place. People are not perfect, people will do things they will regret. But if they kept DOING THEM only if they obtain some sort of twisted advantage over it? And they don't ACKNOWLEDGE or even APOLOGIZE years after the crimes have been recognized for what they are...crimes?

Apartheid was no joke but that doesn't mean I should give this guy accolades since he refused to apologize for the bombings and other atrocities in order to instigate change.

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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby Jeff » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:21 am

I realized that I'm essentially the Nelson Mandela of these forums. I was expelled from Here for years and now I'm here, loved and admired by all. Nelson Mandela would be proud of my presence here.
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby Axm » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:29 am

Jeff wrote:I realized that I'm essentially the Nelson Mandela of these forums. I was expelled from Here for years and now I'm here, loved and admired by all. Nelson Mandela would be proud of my presence here.

Your posts are also considered terrorist attacks.

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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby St. Elmo's Fire » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:25 am

Axm wrote:
Jeff wrote:I realized that I'm essentially the Nelson Mandela of these forums. I was expelled from Here for years and now I'm here, loved and admired by all. Nelson Mandela would be proud of my presence here.

Your posts are also considered terrorist attacks.


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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby mue 26 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:15 am

Riku Rose wrote:
I think of Biko and I think of a man who was able to stand up and show that black people where equal to white people and weren't lesser beings. He stood up for what he believed in and did it in a dignified way that should be more applauded then it currently is. He spoke and acted in a dignified way that worried the government without causing harm to those not involved.


I agree with this largely, but to be honest, I think Biko eschewed violence more because he genuinely felt it wasn't an expedient means of gaining emancipation. He was probably right, as despite the ANC's violence (and despite what I said in my previous post) it was probably self sacrifice that did more for the cause than anything else. I definitely preferred Biko's stance too, yet at the same time, without the ANC's ability to capitalise after the Soweto massacre, the South African gov would have have crushed the movement altogether (at least for a time).

I think of Mandela and I think of a man that wasn't happy with how his people where treated so he helped in blowing up innocent people including women and children. He wasn't trying to show the government that black people should be appreciated and have the same rights but that they should be fear him. He was terrorizing people.

I wouldn't wish this on you but can you imagine if a member of your family was involved in one of the bombs he had a hand in. I'm sure you wouldn't have the light hearted view you have on it now if it personally effected you in the way it did to some people. Some people lost someone very important to them and they may not have been the slightest bit racist or for the apartheid in any way.

To me Mandela is a terrorist who killed innocent men, women and children who should have died in prison.


I'm not going to completely argue against your point, as it's sort of fair enough, and to an extent I do agree, but still I think it's too easy for you to act morally superior when you have never and will never know systematised racism. Not that I condone violence of any kind, because I don't, every death is a tragedy, but if you live in the Apartheid system, are benefiting from that system and are doing nothing to combat it, are you even really innocent? Not saying that people who were combating it weren't accidentally killed too though, as in the famous example of that white doctor or something who was murdered during the Soweto massacre. At the end of the day, I disagree with using the approach of calculated violence too, but I'm not about to get on my high horse like you are. One man's freedom fighter is always another's terrorist, and I'm slightly disappointed that so many in this thread don't seem to understand this.

But if they kept DOING THEM only if they obtain some sort of twisted advantage over it?


Twisted advantage? Seriously... :no:
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby QWERTY » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:52 am

mue 26 wrote:I think it's too easy for you to act morally superior when you have never and will never know systematised racism.


Have you?
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby mue 26 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:32 am

No, hence why I'm not parading around on a high horse. I have tremendous respect for Mandela.
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby QWERTY » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:00 pm

mue 26 wrote: No, hence why I'm not parading around on a high horse. I have tremendous respect for Mandela.


I don't think you're in a position to comment if you haven't experienced it yourself.
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby MiTT3NZ » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:37 am

You honestly can't just change the world with words. Whilst I agree, yes, Mandela was essentially a terrorist, if you look back throughout history, a fucking shitload of what we consider "heroes" were terrorists, war criminals, etc. I'm not saying that it's right, but for a war to be fought and won, innocents will die. Whether they have to or not is another thing entirely, but that's us. Humans. It will happen regardless, and unless you're Batman or Superman, you can't force a government into change or throw them out of their houses without any civillian casualties. It's just the way it is.

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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby ys » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:36 pm

Kenny wrote: Yeah, once I found out about this guy years ago, I was like "how is this guy even celebrated?"

Apartheid was no joke but that doesn't mean I should give this guy accolades since he refused to apologize for the bombings and other atrocities in order to instigate change.

I know. I wrote this somewhere else too and was actually surprised that people didn't attack me for telling this.
I saw statistics which showed that only a small part of all murders on black people during apartheid were by the police. The rest were by black people. It's still crazy of course but I'm not sure if blowing up innocent people (even black) can be justified.
He was also good friends with Arafat and Khadaffi and learned some tricks from the latter if people disobey : put a tire around someone, add some petrol and set it on fire.

In a way the country got worse after apartheid ended. The poor (black and white) are even poorer now and the country is among the best... when we're dealing with murder, rape and AIDS-rates.
Right now for example white farmers and their families there are being murdered/tortured/raped by black gangs at an increasing rate. Partly to steal their land. It's almost the reverse situation but no one calls it hate crimes or genocide. Even if they are a minority. But what to expect when their president was caught singing an anti-white song : Kill the Boer.
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby mue 26 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:18 pm

ding ding ding, and there it is folks, the winner of the worst post of the year. I can't believe that you're not trolling, but unlike qwerty, your clearly not. Don't be an apartheid apologist, just don't. The country is hardly all fine and dandy as of now, but it is not worse than it was during apartheid. No, Mandela was not a saint among mankind, he was a revolutionary freedom fighter for his people who was prepared to do whatever it took to bring down the apartheid system, and make no mistake about it, he played a huge role in turning around South Africa from the utterly disgusting cesspit of racism that it was. I honestly can't believe some of what I've read in this thread.
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby OL » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:43 pm

People get their info from different places, and as such we all end up with different conclusions on various subjects. Unless you were actually present for a sequence of events and therefore know better than everyone else, or unless a certain viewpoint is logically right or wrong, I don't see any reason to be shocked over anyone's understanding of things like this.

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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby ys » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:09 am

Ridiculous answer, mue. So it's the worst because it goes against your point of view? Just so you know, I read most of this information in a paper by a team of historians. And as I'm used to, checked sources showing the opposite side because I never trust one side. Where did you get yours?

Apologist? That's unfair. Criticizing one part doesn't logically imply fully endorsing the other side. Since I was a kid I've found that all should have the same rights in a society. So way to go, assuming I'm for it :???: I just chose not to ignore what I read a few years ago.
And yes, the country doesn't have the racist system in place now which is a step forward. But it IS worse when looking at several socio-economic aspects.

Regarding revolutionary fighters. Where/how do you draw the line between them and a terrorist? Breivik was concerned about the number of immigrant gang rapes. Hitler and Bin Laden also went far to fight for "their people" etc.
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby mue 26 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:09 pm

Bro, I'm not even trying to be unfair but do you really expect anyone to not call you an apartheid apologist when you write this:

I saw statistics which showed that only a small part of all murders on black people during apartheid were by the police. The rest were by black people.


and this:
In a way the country got worse after apartheid ended


You then proceed to tell us how much worse South Africa is now compared to under apartheid while you mention nothing of the horrors of apartheid in your post, except for maybe calling it "crazy". You also fail to mention any of the ways the country has improved.

Where/how do you draw the line between them and a terrorist


That was the point I made earlier when I said that one man's freedom fighter is always another's terrorist. It's easy to condemn something as terrorism when your sitting on the other side. But are you serious, comparing Mandela with Hitler and Bin Laden? Unbelievable. Hitler was a completely delusional and psychotic maniac, and Bin Laden was a religious freak fighting for fuck all.
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Postby ys » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:05 pm

I regret that I edited my post and removed the line about those being extreme examples. I kind of suspected that you would make it sound as if I compared them to him but decided to remove it anyway. It was not a comparison but a general point about the definition since others (and their supporters) also justified violence according to their world view, to improve things for "their people".

And those were actual statistics from that research paper. Calling me an apologist just for stating that is as dishonest as me calling you a terrorism/violence apologist. That's why I specifically wrote "in a way it got worse". That means : not every aspect.

But I'm out of this discussion. You're kind of set on labeling those with criticism as pro-apartheid anyway. Just because I don't list obvious bad things about it and criticize a person's actions doesn't mean that I defend that regime. And maybe it's just me, but I found it odd when I discovered that a guy who got a Nobel Peace prize had been involved in terrorism (albeit for a good cause). Now where's the Shenmue III forum?
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