Controversial gaming opinions

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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby Henry Spencer » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:24 pm

I dunno. Some of what Himuro was saying I agreed with, it wasn't what he was saying, rather how he was saying it. I definitely agree that the JRPG genre is in a bit of a mess at the moment until the likes of FFXV, Xenoblade Chronicles X and Persona 5 come out. There's a lot of animu shit or games with just really bad art/aesthetics/pedo-bait coming out of Japan nowadays, especially in the JRPG genre.
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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby JMan » Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:11 pm

I’d like to see a reboot to Daikatana for the PC. While the game is plagued by faults I do think it has an interesting concept and could make for a better game if in different hands. With all the pointless reboots of otherwise perfectly fine series (Thief) happening I think this would be one actually deserved.

Resident Evil 5 is awesome.
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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby OL » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:24 pm

Having heard from others about this more recently, I suppose it could be controversial:
The first Silent Hill is excellent.
People complain that it's aged badly, but I personally find it no more difficult to go back to than any of the old PS1 Resident Evil games, and most people seem to still regard those highly.

In terms of retro arcade stuff, Namco was easily the best developer/publisher of the 80s and 90s.

Jet Set Radio Future > Jet Grind Radio.

Sonic Adventure 2 > Sonic Adventure.

Shinji Mikami is overrated.

So is Metroid Prime.
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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby Chaos » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:20 pm

OL wrote: Sonic Adventure 2 > Sonic Adventure.

I'm pretty sure that's the majority opinion (unfortunately ;-))
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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby Henry Spencer » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:17 pm

I don't like Majora's Mask. Think it's really overrated.

Also I'm not a huge fan of Mario outside of Super Mario 64.

OL wrote:In terms of retro arcade stuff, Namco was easily the best developer/publisher of the 80s and 90s.


That's hardly controversial. I think plenty would agree with that, the other rivals being Capcom, Konami and maybe SNK.

OL wrote:Sonic Adventure 2 > Sonic Adventure.


But that's what I always hear off Sonic fans. And it's wrong. ;-)

OL wrote:Shinji Mikami is overrated.


Why? The guy makes great games [God Hand is still my favourite Capcom action game on the PS2 and he created one of my favourite game series of all time in Resident Evil]. I personally prefer Mikami way more than Hideki Kamiya, who's the real overrated one here.
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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby OL » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:55 pm

Don't get me wrong, he doesn't suck or anything. He's just overrated.
People hold him up high as some kind of master game dev, but it's kind of silly to think that about someone who only really has a single huge claim to fame (Resident Evil). God Hand is pretty great too, I agree, but it ain't exactly a genius concept; it's a classic beat-em-up formatted for 3D graphics. RE4 is great too, but it's really just building on a series that was already well-established by then (it's not as much of a "reinvention" as people like to pretend).
Other than that, what is there? PN03 is, at the very best, absolutely "meh." And Vanquish, while an okay shooter, is aesthetically boring and has some really bad gameplay choices that bog down what should have been a ton of fun. Dino Crisis is pretty cool, but it's basically just Resident Evil with dinosaurs. And while I do want to play The Evil Within, it really doesn't strike me as "masterpiece" material (which is what a "master" of his medium would be creating, right?).
It's just that general public mindset that he's one of the greatest of the greats... I just don't see it, so the word "overrated" strikes me as pretty apt.
To make it a little clearer, people act like he's a Spielberg, a Kubrick, a Kurosawa... but he strikes me as being more of a Brian de Palma. He's good when he's good, but his work is pretty mixed overall.

Agreed on Kamiya though. I mean, I love DMC, and he directed what I think is the overall best Resident Evil game (RE2), but he's kind of a dick from what I've read. And I find Bayonetta completely unappealing, while his newest game, Scalebound, looks as ridiculously dumb and hackneyed as can be (I've only seen a cg trailer, but it was dumb enough to turn me right off from it).

Keep in mind of course, the term "overrated" is defined entirely by one person's (or thing's) level of esteem compared to another. If other people who deserve a ton of respect were held in just as high a regards as the Mikamis and Kamiyas of the world, then neither of them would seem quite so overrated. Like if Yoshiki Okamoto, Yukio Futatsugi, Keiichiro Toyama, Makoto Shibata, and so many others were held up at the same level of acclaim as them (as practically household names and all that) then sure, no problem, Mikami and Kamiya wouldn't really be overrated, because other people who deserve it would be just as respected.


Henry Spencer wrote:
OL wrote:Sonic Adventure 2 > Sonic Adventure.


But that's what I always hear off Sonic fans. And it's wrong. ;-)


Really? I always got the impression that people loved the first, but thought the second was shit (the move to a stricter level-based setup being one of the chief complaints, and also the fact that everyone hates the Knuckles levels).
Maybe that's just the vibe around here or something.


Henry Spencer wrote:
OL wrote:In terms of retro arcade stuff, Namco was easily the best developer/publisher of the 80s and 90s.


That's hardly controversial. I think plenty would agree with that, the other rivals being Capcom, Konami and maybe SNK.


I just figure most people would likely gravitate toward the Capcom camp, since Namco rarely seems to get much recognition for all their successes and innovations anymore. Capcom has always struck me as being more popular.
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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby Axm » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:38 am

The Evil Within was really quite good and cemented to me that Mikami is worthy of having made a name for himself. Nobody can be a genius game dev to me though. You're always just the sum of your team in the end.

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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby OL » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:13 am

That's a good way to put it. It does bother me a bit that individual people so often get so much attention in a medium like this anyway. Sometimes it really is warranted, but more often a game is made great because of the team behind it. Like how Naughty Dog is really only as great as they are because their development doesn't hinge on a single creative person; everyone has input.
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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby St. Elmo's Fire » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:37 pm

OL wrote: Jet Set Radio Future > Jet Grind Radio.


Ooh yeah this. Even the music.

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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby Henry Spencer » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:16 pm

OL wrote:Don't get me wrong, he doesn't suck or anything. He's just overrated.
People hold him up high as some kind of master game dev, but it's kind of silly to think that about someone who only really has a single huge claim to fame (Resident Evil). God Hand is pretty great too, I agree, but it ain't exactly a genius concept; it's a classic beat-em-up formatted for 3D graphics. RE4 is great too, but it's really just building on a series that was already well-established by then (it's not as much of a "reinvention" as people like to pretend).
Other than that, what is there? PN03 is, at the very best, absolutely "meh." And Vanquish, while an okay shooter, is aesthetically boring and has some really bad gameplay choices that bog down what should have been a ton of fun. Dino Crisis is pretty cool, but it's basically just Resident Evil with dinosaurs. And while I do want to play The Evil Within, it really doesn't strike me as "masterpiece" material (which is what a "master" of his medium would be creating, right?).
It's just that general public mindset that he's one of the greatest of the greats... I just don't see it, so the word "overrated" strikes me as pretty apt.
To make it a little clearer, people act like he's a Spielberg, a Kubrick, a Kurosawa... but he strikes me as being more of a Brian de Palma. He's good when he's good, but his work is pretty mixed overall.


Okay, I get that comparison. I also like De Palma more than Spielberg, since I'm weird like that. But I still think that despite the fact that he's only really seemingly made one mediocre game, the rest are well worth playing. I like the fact that Mikami at least tried not to be tied to horror and tried other stuff out. Whereas Kamiya has just stuck to action games after RE2... I also like Mikami more than Kamiya because he at least tries to be more experimental with his game design instead of Kamiya, who seems to try to refine his past work and not really innovate as much. The Evil Within > Bayonetta.

Also, people forget this, but Mikami was co-writer on killer7 alongside Suda, so I just love the guy for that reason too. One of my favourite game scripts ever.

OL wrote:Agreed on Kamiya though. I mean, I love DMC, and he directed what I think is the overall best Resident Evil game (RE2), but he's kind of a dick from what I've read. And I find Bayonetta completely unappealing, while his newest game, Scalebound, looks as ridiculously dumb and hackneyed as can be (I've only seen a cg trailer, but it was dumb enough to turn me right off from it).


I won't write off Scalebound yet, since dragon riding games are a rarity now. I agree the CG trailer was shit though. Oh, and definitely agree on RE2 and DMC, those are easily his best games and my favourite games in each respective series.

OL wrote:Keep in mind of course, the term "overrated" is defined entirely by one person's (or thing's) level of esteem compared to another. If other people who deserve a ton of respect were held in just as high a regards as the Mikamis and Kamiyas of the world, then neither of them would seem quite so overrated. Like if Yoshiki Okamoto, Yukio Futatsugi, Keiichiro Toyama, Makoto Shibata, and so many others were held up at the same level of acclaim as them (as practically household names and all that) then sure, no problem, Mikami and Kamiya wouldn't really be overrated, because other people who deserve it would be just as respected.


Right, yeah. But regardless Mikami did create RE and popularised horror as a genre in games. I mean, I appreciate what Alone in the Dark, Clock Tower and Sweet Home did too since they were all before Resi Evil, but it wasn't really until RE that we started seeing more and more horror games.

Out of those, the only two I'd say I like more than Mikami would be Shibata for both Deception and Fatal Frame and Toyama for his work on Snatcher and creating Gravity Rush & Siren. Both of those guys created better and incredibly underrated horror games and really fresh concepts in games.

OL wrote:Really? I always got the impression that people loved the first, but thought the second was shit (the move to a stricter level-based setup being one of the chief complaints, and also the fact that everyone hates the Knuckles levels).
Maybe that's just the vibe around here or something.


Yeah, I mean, at least on the game forums that I've personally scoured over the years [experience may be different from yours], people really like to shit on both Sonic Adventure games, but there's always some devout fan of SA2. SA1 is always seen as the start of the era of "bad" Sonic games, which is total bullcrap. I like both Sonic Adventure games, it's just that SA1 left more of an impression on me, since it felt like what Mega Man Legends was to Mega Man - "open-world" feeling whilst retaining that classic SEGA charm and fun stages, but now Sonic was in full 3D. It was also one of my first games on Dreamcast, so there's that nostalgia factor also. Knuckles stages were pretty bad in both games, to be honest.

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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby Himuro » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:26 pm

Controversial opinion time!

Namco in the 90's was a Sega wannabe. Almost every one of their successful titles barring Point Blank was a Sega rip off.

Daytona USA -> Ridge Racer

Virtua Fighter -> Tekken

Virtua Cop -> Time Crisis

And the Sega versions were almost always better.

90's Namco is one of the most overrated developers of all time whose largest claim to fame was ripping off much better games. They found their niche at the tail end of the 90's with Ace Combat and Ridge Racer 4, though.

I also highly disagree with OL on Shinji Mikami. I think he's the most talented game designer working in gaming today. Resident Evil 4, for my money, is the best game I've ever played. It is still being aped on ten years after release - holy shit, RE4 is ten years old now. God Hand is a tremendous reinvention of the 3d beat em up, a genre plagued with issues and very few good successors to its 2d sister. Resident Evil 1 is a masterpiece in gaming. Vanquish took the western third person shooter genre, subverted it, and made the best damn action game of last generation aside from Ninja Gaiden 2. He also co produced Killer 7, which to me is a gaming masterpiece. Evil Within was disappointing, but a lot of the ideas still worked. PN03 was a pretty unique action game too. They're weren't masterpieces, but even Stanley Kubrick had Eyes Wide Shut. This doesn't change that Mikami's games are absolute money and quality and polish. In actuality, I'd say Mikami is underrated. A lot of westerners cannot stand the controls in his games and shit on them. Saying Mikami 's only claim to fame is Resident Evil sounds highly disrespectful to me, personally, given the sheer amount of quality games that man has helmed.

I find Kamiya the overrated one. I loved the original Devil May Cry and Resident Evil 2 is one of my favorite Resident Evil's, but I've never been keen on Viewtiful Joe, Okami was a big disappointment, and I never thought Bayonetta was nearly as good as everyone else thought it was - though admittedly, it's still quite good, and that other game...for Wii U looks boring.

I also wouldn't say that noting that JSRF being better than JSR is a controversial opinion. It's how most people see it. JSRF is the more popular game, wholly due to its faster nature, open levels, and better graphics. Personally, while I like JRSF, I've only ever played it once, and I think the game requires zero skill despite being fun. Meanwhile, I've played JSR about 20 times, and it's my second favorite game of all time. When JSR HD came out, lots of people trashed JSR because it's slower and more methodical and ultimately, much harder. They wanted JSRF instead. Liking JSRF over JSR isn't that controversial.
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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby lavrentis » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:24 pm

Shenmue is the best game of all time and always will be.
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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby OL » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:48 pm

Rakim wrote:
OL wrote: .... Sometimes it really is warranted....

Like who? Miyamoto?


As an example, I'd throw Daisuke Ishiwatari out there. The Guilty Gear series is his original concept, and he not only designed the gameplay, but he also designed the characters, wrote the story (of which there's actually a lot more of than you might think, for a fighting game), wrote the music, and even did the voice for the character Sol Badguy. Without Ishiwatari, the Guilty Gear series would not be what it is in the slightest. Even if he just wrote it and passed the basic idea off to a team and let them take it from there, it wouldn't be anywhere near what it is now, with all of its obscure heavy metal references and whatnot. Almost every single facet of it can be attributed to his own personal tastes. It really is his creative baby; the teams that put together each game are mostly just there for their technical ability. Or at least that could be said for the first few; as they grew more complex, of course it eventually became much more collaborative.

Himuro wrote:90's Namco is one of the most overrated developers of all time...


:blink:
I dunno, it always seems to me like everyone has forgotten about them. I practically never hear anyone talk about old Namco stuff anymore. It's kind of funny, I keep noticing that the main games I keep getting the urge to do videos about are almost always Namco or Namco-related, and it's precisely because no one seems to give them praise anymore.
And I disagree about the Sega "counterparts" too; in pretty much every case, I prefer the Namco ones. ;-)
Nevermind the fact that I don't see how they're ripoffs anyway; the mere fact that they made a 3D racer, a 3D fighter, and a lightgun game doesn't indicate that they were copying anyone. Time Crisis, especially, was more of an attempt at reinvention of the genre, whereas Virtua Cop just kind of did what others did before it (except with 3D graphics). You may as well say Virtua Cop was ripping off Konami's Lethal Enforcers; those two easily have more in common than VC and Time Crisis do.
I'd just say popular genres are popular genres; you can always point to something that came out earlier and accuse the later one of being a ripoff. We may as well say Sega's Out Run was ripping off Namco's Pole Position (sarcastic with that one) while Sega's original Shinobi was just a ripoff of Namco's Rolling Thunder (that one is totally serious). You can string together game after game like that, but it kind of misses the point regardless; it's all about the quality of the games, not where they took inspiration from. And I personally think Namco was pretty damn high-quality back then.
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Re: Controversial gaming opinions

Postby Himuro » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:58 am

You make some salient points, OL. I'm not saying they're bad. I'm in particular a big fan of Ridge Racer and Time Crisis. I'll also note Ridge Racer came out before Daytona. Most of my ire is fired at Tekken. Tekken WAS a Virtua Fighter rip off, and I've always felt it was a bad one. Tekken was very big on aping VF. When VF3 introduced the side step, it was in Tekken 3 the following year. It often came across as blatant to me. I wouldn't be so antsy about it if the Sega games ever received half of the recognition the Namco games did, especially Virtua Fighter.

As for best arcade developer of the 80's/90's, hard to choose. Konami, Namco, Sega, Taito all brought it.

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