I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby Esppiral » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:16 am

Tomato Convenience Store wrote: I don't think it's as easy as people thing to use old assets in a new engine, but given how important the quality of the model was for the first announcement, marketing, kickstarter, nostalgia, I feel this shouldn't gotten taken care of. It would help ease fan anxiety and present the game in a better light to newcomers.


Just to finish this debate, here it is a comparison, between Ryo from allstars game and from the passport.

Image


It is clear they used the passport model, then they lowered the geometry, and the textures to fit it in a racer game.

So, yes they can use existing assets ( main character models) for new games/ engines.

If an amateur like me, can "grab this head", increase the geometry/detail, add some materials, (speculars,normals etc,) give him a new body etc, and use it for renders, I don't know what can stop them from doing something similar and use it for the game. (except for license issues.)

Image
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby Yokosuka » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:25 am

That's the way Ryo should look 8)

Image

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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby Otacon_ahs » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:28 am

Esppiral wrote:

It is clear they used the passport model, then they lowered the geometry, and the textures to fit it in a racer game.



10 years later and they need to lower down the geometry? It kinda sucks.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby Three Blades » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:31 am

Probably because on the DC it was only ever able to show the character's head because everything together was so detailed that the Dreamcast wasn't able to display it. But the racer game needed to show the whole body so it had to be simplified a tiny bit.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby punkmanced » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:31 pm

Esppiral wrote:
If an amateur like me, can "grab this head", increase the geometry/detail, add some materials, (speculars,normals etc,) give him a new body etc, and use it for renders, I don't know what can stop them from doing something similar and use it for the game. (except for license issues.)


Yeah...at this point it's looking like want to start from scratch and come up with a new Ryo model....that kind of looks like the old one.

If this isn't a licensing issue, then those mofos are just bipolar. ](*,)
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby NeoShredder » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:35 pm

I've been thinking about this and wanted to put my 2¢ in, but its a bit of a write up here so I have not posted my thoughts yet. Sorry in advance for the impersonal rambling.

First of all, before I am just labelled as an apologist, yes, I feel that the Kickstarter Ryo could have "looked better" (2bf, we never talk about what the trailer got RIGHT- I'm tempted to make another topic on this point). For a series that was known for all things, its groundbreaking graphics, I think we all wish they'd have gotten it perfect right away.

So why are YsNet seemingly struggling with the design of Ryo, THE MAIN CHARACTER?

It would be easy (provided they had access to all the assets) to copy and paste Passport Ryo or the Sega All-Stars Ryo (Which as Esspiral has just pointed out, had lower quality textures!) Nevertheless, I applaud YsNet for going at this with ground-up work on the design, even if it's going to take some work from here on in, to get it up to MODERN standards and expectations without looking like trash. We want to go BEYOND Passport Ryo. You can't do that just by adding polygons to an old model (Sumo Digital took that the maximum it could be). You need to revisit the very design.

Nevertheless, I think Ryo's design is in a bit of a bind, and I think this partially explains the 'quality' of the KS model in contrast to the rest of the trailer. The real problem is two-fold:

> With today's tech, they are going forward into an "uncanny valley" effect for fans, going from a DC-era Ryo (yes, Unreal Engine 4 in 2017, should easily go beyond the Passport Ryo) we all know and love to modern gaming's hyper-realistic tech demos of individual pore-modelling and facial capture, and
> He is a made-up character, evolved from a character from gaming technology's earliest CGI work, with no real life reference to his design.

Ryo isn't modelled on a real life person, rather he is just an idea bourne out of concept art, and the Virtua Fighter (honestly primitive by today's standards) CG image of Akira for the original Virtua Fighter. See below.

Image

To contrast with a completely different game series, the design of Solid Snake in Metal Gear varied from being based on actors ranging from Kyle Reese, Christopher Walken, Mel Gibson until he had an established "look".

Image


Even so, compare MGS3 (or 4) Snake (PS2) to MGS5 Snake (PS4) where (particularly with the motion captured facial expressions) he looks more like his voice actor, Keifer Sutherland.

Furthermore, Snake's look is based on adult Western action movie stars from Hollywood, of which is there no short supply. Anybody think of a Ryo Hazuki lookalike?

Simply put, Ryo's model and design is stemmed from the earliest work/tech demos of polygon graphics. He has been "designed up" as opposed to "designed down".

Watch this clip of the Project Berkley video, regarding Shenmue 1's development during the 90's. I find it illuminating and very relevant to the current debate. Even for the original game, they had to make clay models to truly convey Yu's 'vision', as the sketches and CG renders weren't enough to produce satisfactory results for the SATURN model:

phpBB [video]


I think this goes a long way explaining the 'poor' quality of this incarnation Ryo. This problem is now amplified with today's new graphical expectations (let alone two years from now). I think Yu can't just copy and paste 'Clay model' Ryo with it looking cartoonish by today's standards. But of course he's making it for the fans, fans who have certain expectations of what Ryo looks like.

The difference now is that graphics have advanced so much the standard for today's new IPs is basically to draw inspiration from real life, which would have just been inconceivable/impossible before outside of the concept art stage. This is not a bad thing for games, after all this is what real artists do. The technology now basically allows it in full.

Let's consider this trend in some of the most graphically acclaimed new games of late:

Ellie in The Last of Us = Ellen Page
Lara Croft in the Rebooted Tomb Raider = Camilla Luddington
Johnathan Irons in Advanced Warfare = Kevin Spacey
Solid Snake = Keifer Sutherland

Again, I ask- Can anyone think of a Ryo lookalike?

Now, we were all very impressed with John Sweeney's Ryo "render" for his Cook and Becker print:

Image

But if you watch the 'making of' video, you can see that the image (from behind so you can't see "Ryo's" face, I might add) was derived from a photograph of some dude posing in his apartment:

phpBB [video]


Anyway, I am fully confident the model will surpass this design technically. However, having been so long since the Dreamcast days, I'm sure this is going to be offset by design. For a project that's barely gotten off the ground, I think this, at least in part, explains the difficulty here.

They want to technically 'surpass' the original Ryo, but they also want fan service.If so, perhaps we shouldn't be suprised at all if Ryo looks somewhat 'different' in the final game.

So why did they show it at all? I don't think the model was in there to impress anyone technically, not at all. In fact if you notice, the actual E3 reveal CUTS OFF before the point Ryo is showed. I think it was there to show, even at this early stage to us as THE FANS, who have had so many broken promises/leaked images of newsprint/concept art over the years that this is a REAL GAME being made that needs to be kickstarted to the best it can be. Here it is, this is where we are, this is were we want to go etc. It was a statement that it wasn't a mobile game, nor Dragonball Z online with fancy CGI fireworks. THE ACTUAL SHENMUE III FULL 3D ADVENTURE EXPERIENCE.

The more I think about it, while it is a shame that it couldn't have been as groundbreaking as Shenmue was in the first place on the Dreamcast, the more impressed I am that this was displayed. They are an indie studio without the resources to make fancy CGI trailers. They showed us SOMETHING REAL, IN GAME. Anyway, imagine the backlash to an indie Kickstarter whose concept video was based off a fully produced CGI trailer (what kind of scam is this?!) or a bunch of sketches (what is this crap! Let us see the game!). They made an honest effort to show actual STUFF. Of course, I haven't even mentioned the fact that it's essentially gone from back-room meetings in different countries and hush-hush events by Yu-san himself, getting confirmation, THEN having to produce a trailer ready in time for E3.

They are NOT cutting and pasting a Dreamcast Ryo. They are making a game to try and meet fans expectations whilst being technically superior. But as we can see, even from the old project berkley video, this is always going to be a challenge for the reasons I've stated about Ryo's design. It's going to be a challenge. I'm rooting for Yu-san 8)

EDIT: Sorry, I should have make this clear, my intention is not to shit all over the DC Ryo model. I love that model, it's our Ryo. It holds up even today. I'm just trying to talk about graphical standards in gaming as it has evolved since, and what would be 'expected' from the Unreal Engine in 2017.

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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby johnvivant » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:22 pm

i think the problem is that the kickstarter Ryo in no way 'captures the essence of Ryo'. he has all things that 'should' make me think its him, like the leather jack, spiky hair, jeans and t-shirt, band aid, trainers, BUT when i look at him he doesn't ignite within me any recognition, which is what i should feel for a much loved character. thats why people describe him as an 'impostor', or 'a really badly drawn piece of fan art', or a 'bad cosplay'.

I actually quite like the new Shenhua, something about her essence actually comes through, even though she looks totally different.
i understand the difficulties of taking the 'Ryo concept' when- as you say- it was conceived at a time when 3d gaming was in its infancy.

this image i think captures him better;
Image

its not something i'm really worried about since we are more than 2 years away from release, so its going to change. its just a shame it wasn't done better given how important it is for fans to feel that shenmue 3 is going to capture the magic of the originals.

I repeat - its a shame it wasn't better, and hopefully it hasn't deterred too many people, BUT IT WILL CHANGE, and THERE IS NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby punkmanced » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:34 pm

johnvivant wrote: i think the problem is that the kickstarter Ryo in no way 'captures the essence of Ryo'. he has all things that 'should' make me think its him, like the leather jack, spiky hair, jeans and t-shirt, band aid, trainers, BUT when i look at him he doesn't ignite within me any recognition, which is what i should feel for a much loved character. thats why people describe him as an 'impostor', or 'a really badly drawn piece of fan art', or a 'bad cosplay'.

I actually quite like the new Shenhua, something about her essence actually comes through, even though she looks totally different.
i understand the difficulties of taking the 'Ryo concept' when- as you say- it was conceived at a time when 3d gaming was in its infancy.

this image i think captures him better;
Image

its not something i'm really worried about since we are more than 2 years away from release, so its going to change. its just a shame it wasn't done better given how important it is for fans to feel that shenmue 3 is going to capture the magic of the originals.

I repeat - its a shame it wasn't better, and hopefully it hasn't deterred too many people, BUT IT WILL CHANGE, and THERE IS NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.



Yeah, I’m sure the finished Ryo will be light years ahead of what we’ve seen so far (in Shenmue 3).

Their only mistake was releasing that POS version during the initial reveal/ funding phase. Zooming in on his face to really hammer the point home certainly couldn’t have helped either :lol:

IMO, all the other characters, including Shenhua, looked good.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby Henry Spencer » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:43 pm

Weren't they just hiring for a 3D Character Model person just recently? So, if they haven't even hired somebody to do that yet, then it would certainly explain how bad his current model is. The "updated" model was just Photoshop, so, erm, yeah, they haven't really done the model proper yet. I was pissed initially too, but since the guy who's supposed to be doing it isn't even hired yet, I'm not worried. Let's wait till next year to voice our disapproval if it's no good.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby manuel tripero » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:44 pm

The difference between "modern" and "realistic" is one approach to have in mind. It doesn't need to look realistic to look modern, for example Shenmue npcs often had a more realistic approach than main characters (even with less polygon count).

I don't think a realistic look would fit characters that well, but it may, who knows.

They can also "modernize" the old models just as well, make the materials pbr, add some bump/detail/occlusion maps, create some nice hair shaders, and you get "modern looking".

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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby NeoShredder » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:49 pm

johnvivant wrote: i think the problem is that the kickstarter Ryo in no way 'captures the essence of Ryo'. he has all things that 'should' make me think its him, like the leather jack, spiky hair, jeans and t-shirt, band aid, trainers, BUT when i look at him he doesn't ignite within me any recognition, which is what i should feel for a much loved character. thats why people describe him as an 'impostor', or 'a really badly drawn piece of fan art', or a 'bad cosplay'.


Agreed. It could've been better technically, definitely conceptual at best.

Still wanna make my point about expectations for design. I've thought of a better example for my point; Old Sonic to Modern Sonic:

Image

No real impotus for it except that the next generation and technical advances (i.e. the Dreamcast) kinda just asked for this to happen, and perhaps that's what we should expect. Are we gonna see "Modern Ryo" vs "Classic Ryo"?

Forget Sonic Boom, a deliberate design choice where they just dun goofed!


I actually quite like the new Shenhua, something about her essence actually comes through, even though she looks totally different.


Yeah definitely! I had no complaints about her, though some did. Perhaps its just that design trope, that females with make-up are conceptually easier for a designer to make look nice, if that makes sense, as opposed to y'know, Ryo Hazuki himself.

i understand the difficulties of taking the 'Ryo concept' when- as you say- it was conceived at a time when 3d gaming was in its infancy.

this image i think captures him better;
Image


The photoshops are nice work but that's about as good as another concept really. I mean another thing I also forgot to touch on as to why they can't just use the old models that obviously we're going to have advanced facial animation/expressions that the old model just can't accomodate. Whatever it's gonna look like it's gonna have to translate to in-game 3d.

I'm looking forward to seeing more of Ryo's evolution. Hype :mrgreen:
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby Monkei » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:50 pm

NeoShredder wrote:Now, we were all very impressed with John Sweeney's Ryo "render" for his Cook and Becker print:

Image



You were? To me that looks like shit, nothing like Ryo or Shenmue at all. Looks like Jin Kazama in a poster for the latest Tekken game or something like that.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby NeoShredder » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:02 pm

Henry Spencer wrote: Weren't they just hiring for a 3D Character Model person just recently? So, if they haven't even hired somebody to do that yet, then it would certainly explain how bad his current model is. The "updated" model was just Photoshop, so, erm, yeah, they haven't really done the model proper yet. I was pissed initially too, but since the guy who's supposed to be doing it isn't even hired yet, I'm not worried. Let's wait till next year to voice our disapproval if it's no good.


Obviously they have 3D modellers on staff or someone who can. The trailer didn't just come out of thin air. I'm convinced its a matter of progress and last minute timing. If they'd done the 'model proper' it would obviously be in the trailer.

You were? To me that looks like shit, nothing like Ryo or Shenmue at all. Looks like Jin Kazama in a poster for the latest Tekken game or something like that.


I think your comment might kind of encapsulate my point about the transition from 'last-last gen' to the 'real life' inspired 3D models we get nowadays in modern games. Would it actually BE 'Ryo' as we know if they did that, whilst being 'technically' superior regardless? How is the design going to do that?

They can also "modernize" the old models just as well, make the materials pbr, add some bump/detail/occlusion maps, create some nice hair shaders, and you get "modern looking".


So the standard for Shenmue III is to literally look as good as the hypothetical HD ports of Shenmue I and II?

for example Shenmue npcs often had a more realistic approach than main characters (even with less polygon count).


Technical limitations of the Dreamcast. Those NPCs didn't animate or express themselves very well.

2bf the BEST models that I believe DO hold up are Chai and Lan Di, no doubt. In fact Chai looked nearly as good on his Saturn debut!

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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby chris1986 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:28 pm

His facial features have changed way too much, and he looks like a different person. You only have to alter a few things in a person to change their look, but the new Ryo just looks like an entirely different person altogether, aside from the fact that his eyes, hair colour and clothes are the same, that's about it. His facial expression is different, he looks too happy, young and 'boyish', the old Ryo looked more stern and focused, as in, no matter what situation he'd find himself in he had that look which said, 'I'm on a mission of revenge'.

It's really important to get the look right,and while they may have done a rushed job to get the kickstarter up and running, and we are still in the early days, people will tend to think that since we're technically miles ahead of the DC era, we should at least get a decent looking character model even if it were rushed.

The thing is they have actually tried quite hard to get it right, it looks like they saw too many different example pictures and the end product turned out wrong due to them trying too hard, and I (like most others) would expect a beta model to maybe lack detail as apposed looking wrong.

I can also appreciate that they updated the model slightly by changing a few things, fair do's to that, but to be blunt the whole things needs to be redone from scratch, all that says to me they want to keep the current model and simply tweak a few things which unfortunately doesn't cut it.

Anyway, we do still have a lot of time ahead of us, but they should make this a top priority before anything else.
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Re: I am a bit confused why the Ryo model looks so bad

Postby manuel tripero » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:31 pm

You missed my points about modern and realistic and how those not equate the same.

So the standard for Shenmue III is to literally look as good as the hypothetical HD ports of Shenmue I and II?


You miss how much they can tweak a model, the new one (apart that doesn't look like ryo) tries to be more realistic, I don't say it's a bad thing (I prefer a more aesthetic approach than focusing on realistic). The difference can be as big as SI Ryo model vs SII vs passport.

There are lots of things that make the game look modern, like hdr lighting, pbr materials, tesselation, etc. That you can do with the old models and prepare them for animation how they need.

Why do you think the new model looks "modern" ?? Because the skin and the jacket has bumpmapping ? Because they can do that with the old models also. If you prefer Shenmue going the route everygame is trying to do ok, it's their choice, I prefer the "anime look".

Technical limitations of the Dreamcast. Those NPCs didn't animate or express themselves very well.


Again doesn't have to do with what I was saying. Look at Lan Di, Ren, Shenhua, even iwao. They are flawless, they have an anime/manga approach, they have that aesthetic. Then look at the NPCs, they are regular guys, they go for that realistic feel.

You can see this pretty clearly in the evolution of FFXV, the first noctis was animelike, the new noctis tries to be more realistic. It's a matter of opinion which style is better suited for the game, but it doesn't mean modern = realistic.
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