Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much?

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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby 0rganiker » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:04 pm

Amir wrote: Lucas/the Star Wars prequels is a bad example, because that was a case of him having no one say "no" to him and the end result being poor. The original Star Wars script was a boring mess, and the final film was saved by editors including his then-wife Marcia Lucas. It was collaboration with people like Lawrence Kasdan that made Empire Strikes Back and to a lesser extent Return of the Jedi worthy (or in the case of ESB, superior) sequels. I rank Suzuki-san much more highly as a artist than Lucas. While I don't seem as a talentless hack who got lucky like many do, I really don't think Lucas is anywhere near as great as Suzuki-san.


The example isn't bad, it's just that you're misapplying it. I used it to talk about how prequels ended up bad, not why the original trilogy was good. The fact that Lucas had no one to oppose him is kind of my point. He let the outside world affect his decisions and there was no one who said "no" when it went off the rails. This is why I was suggesting that we make it clear to Yu that it's his vision we want to see and not what he THINKS fans want to see.
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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby Yokosuka » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:22 pm

Hopefully those who support Yu's personal vision (and I am among them) will not be too harsh. I fear that a lot of strict nostalfags are going to express their disappointment.
Of course I've nothing against complains but please don't forget to respect his work if that case happens.

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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby Sh3ppy » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:30 pm

Yokosuka wrote:nostalfags are going to express their disappointment


Lovely.

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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby Mr357 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:37 pm

Yokosuka wrote: Hopefully those who support Yu's personal vision (and I am among them) will not be too harsh. I fear that a lot of strict nostalfags are going to express their disappointment.
Of course I've nothing against complains but please don't forget to respect his work if that case happens.


See, you just don't understand that 27,000khz audio actual sounds better and more atmospheric. My immersion is ruined whenever a game features this "modern" audio. Naturally, Shenmue 3 needs to be built in the original engine and have full support for both the Saturn and Dreamcast. It's what the true fans want, not sellouts like you.

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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby Rikitatsu » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:42 pm

Sonoshee wrote:
Rikitatsu wrote:
We contact Cedric and ask him to suggest to Suzuki a Backer-Poll, the poll would ask something along these lines: "Do you prefer if I shape Shenmue 3's around the fans' ideas and feedback, or would you rather have me go with my original vision for the game?"


Well we shouldn't even give the man a choice :twisted:
Maybe a tweetathon with a tag like #Yu'sVision or something? Tell him exactly how the fans feel about him not diverting at ALL from his original ideals.

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Don't worry, if there's a backer-poll, the "Suzuki's original vision" would win by a land-slide, I'm fairly confident of that. Shenmue fans value Suzuki's vision and they don't want him to just pander to the fanbase.

A backer-poll should let Suzuki know that the people who invested in his project want to see his undiluted original vision come alive. It will be a clear, precise result, and not as messy as a tweetathon. We should start tweeting Cedric, I'd say. I already did, but he didn't reply to me.

A tweetathon should be plan B.
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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby Mr357 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:17 pm

I can tell you from experience that games start turning sour when the developers cater to what the fans say they want. Most of the time, people don't know entirely what they want, and when they realize what they want through playing the game, the impact is much greater. For example, when I first started Shenmue 1 I didn't even know that fighting was a part of the game. After I got used to it, I discovered that it was extremely satisfying, and it's now one of my favorite parts of the games. This is coming from someone who blows at Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, etc. and typically does not enjoy fighting games.

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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby ShinChuck » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:13 am

Rereading the topic, I think we're all saying the same things, just with some different interpretations.

Vision changes over time. His vision of a VF RPG became the Shenmue we know and love, and 2000's vision for Shenmue III won't match 2015's, which won't match 2017's. That's fine, because the best visions grow and evolve. Artists grow, learn, and thrive, assimilating new ideas and information, discarding some and running with others. Yu should listen to the fans, but what he takes from them should ultimately be his call.

We all want Yu's vision to be realized. Basically, we're all saying is this: "We want him to follow his vision within certain parameters of what's expected from a Shenmue game." One side isn't saying that they truly want him complete freedom to deliver Shenmue in the form of a Skittles potato salad if that's what he wants, nor is the other saying he *should* if that's what the fans demand. If he wants Ryo with Joy and it's reasonable and integral to his vision, we agree that he should run with it even if we prefer Nozomi or Shenhua, but if he wants to make Shenmue III in the form of interpretive dance riffed from the audience by Crow and Servo, he should probably listen to the fans and stick to a video game set in Baisha village!

I have faith in Yu, and trust him to grow and evolve in a way that's true to himself and Shenmue!

(I had a big, rambly post here that was maybe more antagonistic than I intended. Sorry about that!)
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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby DOS » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:37 pm

Sonoshee wrote:Maybe a tweetathon with a tag like #Yu'sVision or something?

YuDoWhatYuWants - but then he might feel he could do anything like
:snipersmile: :2gunfire: :flame:

Maybe Yu'sVision is better ;-)
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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby Yama » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:48 pm

I know what you mean OP, but luckily Shenmue's vision was complete long ago, it just hasn't made it into game form as of yet. So I wouldn't worry much.
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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby Yokosuka » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:28 pm

Yama wrote: I know what you mean OP, but luckily Shenmue's vision was complete long ago, it just hasn't made it into game form as of yet. So I wouldn't worry much.


Agree. I put this to illustrate your words :

Switch wrote:
Yokosuka wrote:I thought the 5 game structures were planned before the E3 and he choose one for the kickstarter with slight variations according the final budget, am I wrong ?

This is also my understanding from Yu's Niconico interview i.e. Yu chose one of the 5 game structures for the Kickstarter. It's a bit confusing because he also talks about budget as being one of the factors he considered in deciding which structure to choose, but I take it to mean that the structure he has chosen is suitable for a budget of around $2 to $10 million achieved through Kickstarter.

From the transcript:
Well, those scenarios will stay based on the underlying story, as I spoke about a few minutes ago, but there are several factors to consider when it comes to putting them into the game. For Shenmue III these are things such as: selection of the game engine, the size of the budget,the length of time for development and so on. And depending on these factors, certain changes may be needed to the content of the game. What platforms the game will be on is another consideration. Just for Shenmue III, I ended up with around 5 potential game structures. Stretch goals must also be fitted for the various budget levels, matching with the Kickstarter project. So actually there are several structure variations. And now, for this new project, I have chosen the structure that I believe fits best.
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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby Anonymous81 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:04 pm

I'm sure any fan feedback that impacts actual development will be limited. In other KSes where surveys impacted the game, the actual result was extremely token or superficial. They have a limited budget to work within and they are experienced and veteran enough in development to know they need a clear design and specific milestones. They're going to likely give us surveys and things to help us influence certain elements, but I doubt very much that they will sacrifice their overall design document to cater to us.

We will get some participation, which is a privilege. But this will be their game. And it will likely be better for that, in my humble opinion. There's a difference between that, and making promises that aren't fulfilled ala Mass Effect 3. It's not Yu's style to use PR to mislead. It's his style to say exactly what his ambitions are and then to achieve them. Or to be vague when he isn't sure what he can manage, and then give us something true to those vague parameters.

Either way, we won't get misled, we will get some say in certain things, and the final game will be true to his vision. Everybody wins imo.
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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby MiTT3NZ » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:07 pm

Yes and no. I'm worried that he'll listen to the wrong things and ignore the right ones.

The simple fact that he said including this move or that inventory item as a "good idea" that he'll "look into" was enough to warrant it. I think too much time has passed and he's forgotten so much about the previous games. Almost as if he's too forward-thinking.

The one thing I reckon he should definitely do is go back and play the games. Twice each. I want to be able to play Shenmue III after Shenmue II and it flow seamlessly.
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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby AnimeGamer183 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:39 am

0rganiker wrote: It's funny, I was going to post a thread exactly like this yesterday but didn't want to take away from the excitement of the campaign ending.

This worry is legitimate, and it doesn't help that everything we hear from Yu is a translation because a lot of what he's been saying seems to suggest he will change things based on fan input.

You can see how bad this can turn out just by looking at the Star Wars prequels. It's fairly apparent that Lucas let the outside world's perception of his work affect how he went with the prequels. He ended up emphasizing certain characters that were fan favorites, even though it really didn't make sense in the context of the story. This is the worry.

I don't think anyone wants to play a game that doesn't show us anything new. One of the reasons I love the Shenmue series is because it takes me to places I wouldn't go to based on my own thoughts. I don't want to see an echo of my own vision when playing the game, I want to see what it was supposed to be.

There's also the fact that just because a lot of fans want it doesn't mean that it's the right course of action. As a teacher, I get a lot of feedback from students, and sometimes they'll have a consensus about a suggestion that I unquestionably know would be detrimental to their education. The problem is that THEY aren't teachers, so while I still listen to and value their opinions, I also know that in some cases they simply don't know what they're talking about.

You can sort of see this when it comes to Yu's reaction to Nozomi's popularity. I think the poll question was worded poorly, and should have been more along the lines of, "which character would you like to see more of?" The way Yu talks about that poll, it makes me think that was his actual question. His response about Nozomi's popularity is basically "it doesn't really make sense to bring her back." Since he knows this, it's kind of disappointing for him to see how many people like her because he can't use that for his next game.

All that said, I don't think Yu is really the type of person to let others affect his vision to a great degree. Just to be cautious, though, I feel like maybe we should find a way to make it clear that we don't want this game warping into some sort of fanfic.


WHOA whoa whoa whoa man, lets back this train on up, you are getting WAY ahead of yourself here.

1st of all the story for Shenmue is complete. Suzuki has had the story planned out for quite some time, you may want to go back and watch the postmortem of Shenmue they had last year, that was when I raised an eye brow about the possibility of there being a Shenmue 3 announcement at some point, and in that regard there were bread crumbs laid. If you watch it though, keep in mind the spoilers of the next chapters 6-11 dont really reveal too much, it shows some art work of the next few geography locales a few sketches of Ryo and his comrades at the time and vague very brief narrative description for that chapter but at that point everyone was just so interested to get some kind of media for Shenmue and there was alot of things we never saw before and it was just great great stuff, worth checking out, i'll post it below.

2nd trying to compare film and trying to compare games really isnt fair. I can understand some cinematic exceptions to that, but games and especially in regard to Shenmue, they have a different engaging atmosphere than film and its something that film just simply cannot achieve and vice versa.

phpBB [video]


I trust Yu 100% on this. I think Yu has a big opportunity to make magic happen yet again, and I dont think anything is going to get in the way of his vision, he has everything planned out, no need to worry about story changes man. The post mortem obviously has great stuff in it and it shows that Yu clearly has alot of this already planned and envisioned, just now he gets to finish it, a decade and a half later.
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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby 0rganiker » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:55 am

AnimeGamer183 wrote: words


Really? I can't compare two things because they are in some ways different? I mean, I guess we can't ever compare any two things, right? I mean, if there's any game that can be compared to a film it would be Shenmue considering how many film-type professionals he collaborated with to make his masterpiece.

I feel like no one who read what I said actually read all of it or understood the jist of what I was saying. I was pointing out that original question sparking this thread isn't completely unjustified, but I also said I didn't believe it was going to be a problem since I've got faith that Yu is, well.. Yu.
Last edited by 0rganiker on Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much

Postby shredingskin » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:01 am

One of the worries I have is that Yu may have been way long away from game development / game scene.

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