The New Combat System

[Rikitatsu]

All signs point to the combat system in Shenmue 3 being radically different than the previous two games.

Here's what I gathered (If I missed something/got something wrong, please remind/correct me, and I'll update the OP)

- It's mixture of Free Battle and QTE, called 'Battle QTE'

- Once you get a move scroll, you can use the move immediately in battle in the form of a QTE.

- The combat is supposed to be slower, 'more realistic'... Yu Suzuki says the previous combat system had unnatural and fast movements, he'd like to change that in Shenmue 3 by making things slower and more natural.

- There is supposed to be a strategic element involved in the fighting, like more emphasis on positioning and drawing enemies out

- They are aiming to allow fights to take place in confined and tight spaces like on staircases or alleyways.

- They're should be a lot of physics interactions in the environment, something falls over and triggers a chain reaction where it knocks others things off.

- There is a system that allows enemies to discover you, if for example 5 enemies see you, those 5 enemies will chase you down and you can lure them to an alleyway or a place where you can minimize their advantage.

- Shenmue 2 had focused on Northern Kung Fu like BajiQuan, which had 'larger movements'... According to Suzuki, Shenmue 3 will focus on the Southern Kung Fu like Wing Chun, which are suited for close range fighting... These type of martial arts can be used in confined spaces.

- The combat will be very different to the point that players who are used to the old combat system will have to re-learn a lot. They're will be 'Quite a lot of changes'.




My personal thoughts:
Part of me wants to believe and trust in Yu Suzuki, what he's describing sounds good on paper, a more strategic, slow and cinematic approach isn't necessarily bad... Although a lot of games seem to go through that path and the results have been mostly disappointing... I guess Sleeping Dogs was fun but I would never trade the VF combat in Shenmue 1&2 for that.

I really, truly believe the Shenmue 1&2 combat to be the best in it's genre... It's only held back by the dodgy camera, otherwise it's simply flawless... And that's why most of Suzuki said above worries me, he sill might come up with another flawless combat system, but what are the chances? Stuff like QTE mid-battle sounds fine if it was in the same vein as Shenmue 2... But if it's becomes too frequent I fear it may damage the pace of the fighting.... Slower movement? Ehhhh... Focus on Southern Kung Fu? I loved the BajiQuan moves in Shenmue 2, I'm gonna miss it..

I'm anxious to see it in action, hopefully it retains the essence of the old Free Battle.

[Spaghetti]

A lot of what Yu is saying is not that different from the ethos that made Shenmue's fighting engine different from VF in the first place. Shenmue's combat is slower and more cinematic than VF's, so we shouldn't assume Yu's comments on furthering that aspect to mean that the depth is being stripped out.

In fact, it's kind of the opposite. Being able to divide and conquer groups of enemies adds a strategy element to the fights, as will the improved combat physics allowing the environment to be used to slow them down or stop them entirely. This could give the combat more depth than ever before, regardless of simplified core controls.

I think it's best to wait to see it in action, and most of all, to not be afraid of change.

[Rikitatsu]

A lot of what Yu is saying is not that different from the ethos that made Shenmue's fighting engine different from VF in the first place. Shenmue's combat is slower and more cinematic than VF's, so we shouldn't assume Yu's comments on furthering that aspect to mean that the depth is being stripped out.

I wouldn't say Shenmue's combat is slower than VF, more cinematic? Yes, since it doesn't have juggles and what not... But slower? I think they're just about the same speed.

The stuff Suzuki is saying sounds like radical changes, and not just slowing the game down just a notch. I'm worried that simplification of inputs will wipe away the satisfaction from pulling off complex moves or precisely timed counters... Imagine if an enemy attacks you, and then time slows down and a QTE prompt appears to execute a counter, that is completely unsatisfying IMO and too much of that will make fights a drag...Of course, this is just a scenario I came up with in my head, I agree that we should wait and see how it pans out, Suzuki is a genius after all... But doesn't mean we can't speculate and discuss the possibilities of what "Battle QTE" might turn out to be.

[Spaghetti]

I wouldn't say Shenmue's combat is slower than VF, more cinematic? Yes, since it doesn't have juggles and what not... But slower? I think they're just about the same speed.

The stuff Suzuki is saying sounds like radical changes, and not just slowing the game down just a notch. I'm worried that simplification of inputs will wipe away the satisfaction from pulling off complex moves or precisely timed counters... Imagine if an enemy attacks you, and then time slows down and a QTE prompt appears to execute a counter, that is completely unsatisfying IMO and too much of that will make fights a drag...Of course, this is just a scenario I came up with in my head, I agree that we should wait and see how it pans out, Suzuki is a genius after all... But doesn't mean we can't speculate and discuss the possibilities of what "Battle QTE" might turn out to be.

I don't know, VF can get a lot quicker than Shenmue. Even Shenmue II's combat which was a few notches faster than the original is a hair or two behind VF speeds. Well, unless you're playing super defensively/turtling up.

The problem with speculation is that we've really started the thread off with worst case hypothetical scenarios. With most information about the combat being months old, and having not seen a scrap of it since the game got funded, we'll probably just look for an imaginary boogey man and get ourselves worked up over something that may not happen.

What I'm trying to get at is, a lot of what you're saying R.E simplified controls and counters could be applied to the differences between VF and the original Shenmue combat. Shenmue has the X & A auto combos and a fairly forgiving counter/deflect window that uses a single button press, as opposed to VF just having a block button and relying on the player to maneuver and outwit their opponent to counter.

To assume a lack of depth right now is unfounded. Assuming the worst doesn't quite make sense, when there's actually a lot of consistency in what Yu has said when applied to how the original Shenmue combat was designed compared to VF.

I feel we might fall on opposite sides of the coin on this one regardless, so that's all I've really got to say about this regarding whether simplifying combat might work out or not.

-----

I've got other areas of speculation regarding combat, though.

Like how the divide and conquer mechanics may work when applied to indoor and outdoor areas of battle. Yu did suggest the communal kitchen area of a Tulou might be a good arena for a fight, so I can already imagine a scenario where a fight breaks out in the narrow upstairs areas and Ryo has to lead enemies down into the courtyard to prevent getting surrounded at close quarters.

I also wonder how the Kung Fu Mastery stretch goal(s) have been/would have been applied. I had a theory they tied into the Skill Tree System in some way, and through the game you could start experimenting with different forms of martial arts and change up some of the basic Hazuki-style moves like we saw in II, but in a more involved way that changed your stances, your normal punches/kicks/throws, etc.

There's also the question of whether weapons may factor in. Ryo probably won't use them, but enemies already have in the series and I could see that element being expanded upon.

[fittersau]

I'd be surprised if Ryo couldn't do any of his old moves. Shenmue 1 moves carried over to 2.

I expect someone's work at the studio would be to import all the moves from 1 & 2 to 3.

[Hyo Razuki]

I'm really curious about how they will incorporate the environment into the fighting system. I just can't immagine Ryo fighting dirty and going all Kazuma Kiryu on people, smashing their heads into walls, throwing them on bonfires and beating them up with clubs and so on.

[Benwah]

I'm really curious about how they will incorporate the environment into the fighting system. I just can't immagine Ryo fighting dirty and going all Kazuma Kiryu on people, smashing their heads into walls, throwing them on bonfires and beating them up with clubs and so on.

Ryo has been stuck in that cave for over 15 years. That is longer than Oh Dae-Su was kept captive in the movie Oldboy. One can only imagine the savagery that Ryo is capable of now.

[Hazuki00]

What worries me most is the speculated blend of QTE and free battle, If it's as I imagine it, I don't like being fighting and suddenly a QTE appears..

Anyway, we have to wait and see with what Suzuki surprises us , he's a genious and always creates originals things.

[DoubleO_Ren]

Everyone keeps saying Suzuki is a genius and I agree he really is, but after the burns he's had the past 15 years and almost getting a George Lucas like hate from mainstream gamers I feel his confidence could be kinda low and he'd be tempted to follow the trends of modern gaming a bit more than he should. And hearing this new fighting mechanic could be a casualty of this. I don't like the sound of this at all. Shenmue has some of the best fighting mechanics on any game, because of how it really makes YOU feel like the martial artist rather than just button mash and counter.

[Kiske]

Everyone keeps saying Suzuki is a genius and I agree he really is, but after the burns he's had the past 15 years and almost getting a George Lucas like hate from mainstream gamers I feel his confidence could be kinda low and he'd be tempted to follow the trends of modern gaming a bit more than he should. And hearing this new fighting mechanic could be a casualty of this. I don't like the sound of this at all. Shenmue has some of the best fighting mechanics on any game, because of how it really makes YOU feel like the martial artist rather than just button mash and counter.

Wait, why?

[DoubleO_Ren]

I said ALMOST, I've watched a few new people introduced to the games playing streams and even the nicest people still don't get it and diss the game for being too slow and having "stupid" or "thoughtless" game mechanics. And they don't ever forget to drop Yu Suzuki's name in for it. And all their little cronies in the comments diss the games as well. That on top of being partially responsible for Sega's downfall according to the gaming media, I wouldn't be surprised if Yu wants to play it safe and make Shenmue III way more generic than it should've been.

[Rikitatsu]

What I'm trying to get at is, a lot of what you're saying R.E simplified controls and counters could be applied to the differences between VF and the original Shenmue combat. Shenmue has the X & A auto combos and a fairly forgiving counter/deflect window that uses a single button press, as opposed to VF just having a block button and relying on the player to maneuver and outwit their opponent to counter.

To assume a lack of depth right now is unfounded. Assuming the worst doesn't quite make sense, when there's actually a lot of consistency in what Yu has said when applied to how the original Shenmue combat was designed compared to VF.

You're probably thinking of the regular Dodge > Grab or Punch counters, while I was thinking of moves like Counter Elbow Assault and that move you learn from Chen at the end of Shenmue 1. Those kind of moves have much tighter execution window, and I wonder about their place in this new Battle QTE system. Will they still require precise timing, despite Suzuki saying he'll shift focus away from the VF style of combat to something more strategic? Something that requires thinking as opposed to fast reactions? That's what I'm worried about... We've got little to go on about, true, but I wouldn't say the assumptions and speculations are unfounded. It's pretty clear it's going to be a lot different than what came before, they even said players will have to re-learn the combat with Shenmue 3, that sounds like a radical change to me.


Also, I don't think lack of depth is my only concern. It could have depth, but a different kind... Like you've said, the depth could be focused on other elements, like strategic positioning and making use of environments, but I wouldn't trade that kind of depth with what we had in previous games, pulling off hard to execute, but powerful moves and counters was extremely satisfying, and IMO, that's the crux of every good combat system: If the fighting itself, the inputs, don't feel satisfying, the other meta elements like crowd-control or environmental damage won't make up for it, regardless of how deep they can get.

And if "Battle QTE" plays out like how I imagined it, I'm gonna be bummed. I've got a question, how do you think this Battle QTE will turn out to be? You think it's just a slower free battle? What about the implementation of QTEs?


Gosh, I really hope the December trailer won't just be environmental footage. (As much as I would like that)

[Spaghetti]

You're probably thinking of the regular Dodge > Grab or Punch counters, while I was thinking of moves like Counter Elbow Assault and that move you learn from Chen at the end of Shenmue 1. Those kind of moves have much tighter execution window, and I wonder about their place in this new Battle QTE system. Will they still require precise timing, despite Suzuki saying he'll shift focus away from the VF style of combat to something more strategic? Something that requires thinking as opposed to fast reactions? That's what I'm worried about... We've got little to go on about, true, but I wouldn't say the assumptions and speculations are unfounded. It's pretty clear it's going to be a lot different than what came before, they even said players will have to re-learn the combat with Shenmue 3, that sounds like a radical change to me.

Also, I don't think lack of depth is my only concern. It could have depth, but a different kind... Like you've said, the depth could be focused on other elements, like strategic positioning and making use of environments, but I wouldn't trade that kind of depth with what we had in previous games, pulling off hard to execute, but powerful moves and counters was extremely satisfying, and IMO, that's the crux of every good combat system: If the fighting itself, the inputs, don't feel satisfying, the other meta elements like crowd-control or environmental damage won't make up for it, regardless of how deep they can get.

And if "Battle QTE" plays out like how I imagined it, I'm gonna be bummed. I've got a question, how do you think this Battle QTE will turn out to be? You think it's just a slower free battle? What about the implementation of QTEs?

I think it's all just a case of waiting to see what they've got to show. The only thing we know for certain is that the combat will be different, and that's about it.

It's worth pointing back to the DualShockers video of Yu demonstrating the AI Battling system from last year, where he explained that by using intelligent systems (AI targeting, animation blending, etc I suppose) Ryo would be able to step into a punch if an enemy was out of reach or even leap onto a wall to perform a flying kick. He specifically called that a simplified command for a complicated technique. I think that's more what Yu is talking about when simplified controls comes up, but a better way to describe it would probably be context sensitive controls.

Again, here is the quote when Yu is asked about it:

YS: It’s a system that will make the character respond intelligently to the commands given by the player during battle. With simple commands you’ll be able to execute complex techniques.

Exactly how simple the rest of the controls will be is yet to be seen, but it absolutely doesn't seem like QTEs are set to replace any complicated action. Most of the information I can remember regarding QTE implementation into battles are from the original KS pitch, which of course is completely moot now seeing how far into the combat stretch goals we got.

-----

On a separate note R.E Yu possibly taking from other games for Shenmue III's mechanics, from the same interview I quoted before:

G: Do you play any games nowadays?

YS: I don’t really play other games, because if you play games it’s too easy to be influenced by them, and even if it is unintentional, one ends up losing their originality. On the other hand, I’m watching movies.

Yu has said multiple times one of the things he wants to stand out about Shenmue III is its originality. He isn't just going to copy+paste existing mechanics to make it more palatable to the mainstream audiences who never cared about the game in the first place. Shenmue III is by the fans, for the fans, period.

[Rikitatsu]

It's worth pointing back to the DualShockers video of Yu demonstrating the AI Battling system from last year, where he explained that by using intelligent systems (AI targeting, animation blending, etc I suppose) Ryo would be able to step into a punch if an enemy was out of reach or even leap onto a wall to perform a flying kick. He specifically called that a simplified command for a complicated technique. I think that's more what Yu is talking about when simplified controls comes up, but a better way to describe it would probably be context sensitive controls.

Again, here is the quote when Yu is asked about it:

YS: It’s a system that will make the character respond intelligently to the commands given by the player during battle. With simple commands you’ll be able to execute complex techniques.

Exactly how simple the rest of the controls will be is yet to be seen, but it absolutely doesn't seem like QTEs are set to replace any complicated action. Most of the information I can remember regarding QTE implementation into battles are from the original KS pitch, which of course is completely moot now seeing how far into the combat stretch goals we got.

I hate to continue sounding like a debbie downer and a pessimist, but having complex moves performed by a context sensitive button sounds just as bad as the hypothetical Battle QTE system I outlined above, if not worse... I know context sensitive moves were in Shenmue 1&2 already, like when you have your back towards the enemy and press the kick button, Ryo will kick the enemy behind him, or pressing the throw button on the sides/back triggers a different throw... This is pretty much the same with all 3D fighters... However, based on your positioning you know what type of move you will perform... I know I'm going to flip an enemy while elbowing his neck when I press the Throw Button from his side. There is consistency.

But when things start to get random (see: Assassin's Creed, Arkham) where just mashing a button performs a bunch of random cool moves, that's when it becomes near impossible to predict what action the character will perform based on your button press. Will he perform a roundhouse kick? Or just because the enemy is 2 meters away he'll jump forward and kick? I start to feel like I lost control over the character, I can't plan which move I perform, I just mash away the buttons and watch this movie-like action unfold.

Pretty much every game that attempted such a system have bored me to tears after the 15th or so battle. So I hope you understand why hearing "With simple commands you’ll be able to execute complex techniques" sounds every alarm in my head.


Despite my concerns, I have trust in Yu Suzuki, and I hope he surprises us with something no one has ever attempted before. And if he doesn't, meh... We're getting Shenmue 3! Beggars can't be choosers...

[Spaghetti]

I hate to continue sounding like a debbie downer and a pessimist, but having complex moves performed by a context sensitive button sounds just as bad as the hypothetical Battle QTE system I outlined above, if not worse... I know context sensitive moves were in Shenmue 1&2 already, like when you have your back towards the enemy and press the kick button, Ryo will kick the enemy behind him, or pressing the throw button on the sides/back triggers a different throw... This is pretty much the same with all 3D fighters... However, based on your positioning you know what type of move you will perform... I know I'm going to flip an enemy while elbowing his neck when I press the Throw Button from his side. There is consistency.

But when things start to get random (see: Assassin's Creed, Arkham) where just mashing a button performs a bunch of random cool moves, that's when it becomes near impossible to predict what action the character will perform based on your button press. Will he perform a roundhouse kick? Or just because the enemy is 2 meters away he'll jump forward and kick? I start to feel like I lost control over the character, I can't plan which move I perform, I just mash away the buttons and watch this movie-like action unfold.

Pretty much every game that attempted such a system have bored me to tears after the 15th or so battle. So I hope you understand why hearing "With simple commands you’ll be able to execute complex techniques" sounds every alarm in my head.


Despite my concerns, I have trust in Yu Suzuki, and I hope he surprises us with something no one has ever attempted before. And if he doesn't, meh... We're getting Shenmue 3! Beggars can't be choosers...

I can't say I agree when it comes to context sensitive moves being somehow worse than mid-battle QTEs, especially given your own examples of how it was used to great effect in Shenmue already.

Thinking about the bigger picture helps. I think the areas of battle are going to be the most different thing about the combat, and involve bigger, multi-tiered stages where that divide and conquer mechanic can come into play. Context sensitive controls can help the maneuverability needed to get around if you're being chased or need to get to higher/lower ground.

We're just going to have to wait and see how it works out. I don't have blind faith in Yu on this issue, but I think the overall mindset and goals of the new FREE Battle System are pretty much the same as the old, and that gives me a lot of excitement about what they'll put out.

A combat reveal with whatever comes in December would be nice, but we'll see. We do know it's something they've been working on since their earliest tests, but it might not be ready to be shown off in detail just yet, and even then a hands-on try at the combat will explain itself better than any video could anyway.