Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Spaghetti » Mon May 29, 2017 3:14 pm

killthesagabeforeitkillsu wrote: I don't see why people shouldn't expect passport Ryo... after all just a few months ago they photoshoped Ryo's DC face into a screenshot, implying they were still going for that look.

Ryo's in-game model is not passport Ryo, though.

As you can see in the video I posted, they literally introduced Ryo for the first time by actually morphing from a Miyawaki design to the in-game model. That's arguably always been their approach to the characters in-game. Passport Ryo is a Dreamcast technical showcase.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby killthesagabeforeitkillsu » Mon May 29, 2017 3:29 pm

Spaghetti wrote:
killthesagabeforeitkillsu wrote: I don't see why people shouldn't expect passport Ryo... after all just a few months ago they photoshoped Ryo's DC face into a screenshot, implying they were still going for that look.

Ryo's in-game model is not passport Ryo, though.

As you can see in the video I posted, they literally introduced Ryo for the first time by actually morphing from a Miyawaki design to the in-game model. That's arguably always been their approach to the characters in-game. Passport Ryo is a Dreamcast technical showcase.


Passport Ryo is simply a beta higher poly version of what we got. Without hardware limitations we would most likely get a more polished in game passport Ryo.

I don't see what Ryo being introduced from a Miyawaki design has to do with anything and how it somehow negates the previous two games 3D artistic direction. Yoshitaka Amano and Yoji Shinkawa also make beautiful works but the in game end product always looks more grounded.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Yokosuka » Mon May 29, 2017 3:32 pm

The morphing is likely just a stylized effect. Morphing was pretty fashioned at the time. Moreover, even a bird face could have been used onto the Ryo's one then the morphing would have still worked.

Ryo CGI on Shenmue posters is the real target render. Even the Shenmue Online artists did their best to match it for their cinematic. That's the Ryo the fans want, and YSnet obviously knows. Of course, they have the freedom to change slightly his facial features to fit their emotion expression purposes and keep themselves below the technical constrains.

Despite the Centrale's mosaic, the problem is still there. Our model is closer to a realistic Street Fighter 5 than a truly sequel of Shenmue II.

Interestingly, Shenmue I & II was sometimes an odd mix of highly realistic and slightly-manga characters. The most radical design was the bookstore girl in Shenmue II like if they literally snapped a woman face and paste it on a 3D model.

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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Spaghetti » Mon May 29, 2017 3:37 pm

ChiefNeo wrote: This doesn't look like shenmue. I wholeheartedly disagree with the people that say that it does. This is what the character of a Jade Empire sequel should look like, not shenmue. This proves my fears that the texture work, with all it's "dirty" and "gritty" details will no be present in the characters. That classic look with the baked in shadows and lighting will be gone.

It looks like it's made out of putty.

This is what they are going for:Image

Instead of Image

For shenmue to look like shenmue, the facial textures have to be handcrafted. You cannot rely on polygonal geometry and lighting for the look. That's why you need to draw it in. They are not doing that. It will not look the same.

It's NOT the same. I will not cry over it. At this point I'm still just glad to be getting the game...though I am very sad that we are loosing the traditional look. Much like the title, it will be shenmue, with a different font.

I'm sorry, but of course it was not going to be the same. We're over 15 years removed from the originals and technology has moved on in leaps and bounds, not even accounting for the considerably different environment in which Shenmue III is being created. To say this isn't Shenmue is ridiculous considering the numerous examples in this thread already of how they already used to walk very close to the character art with their models before anyway.

"Drawing in" the details is so ass-backwards when you have many, many, many more times polygons to work with to create the character's face in the actual model rather than the texture.

And those images are disingenuous. Characters in a test environment, and a screen from a final render from two different games? Come on.

This is what they're aiming for:

Image

This is what they've made:

Image

Not being able to recognise that a 15 year technology gap has to be bridged is one thing, but it's seriously unfair to say they're going to something they're clearly not.

The character design is very Shenmue, and the model accurately reflects that.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Spaghetti » Mon May 29, 2017 3:49 pm

killthesagabeforeitkillsu wrote:Passport Ryo is simply a beta higher poly version of what we got. Without hardware limitations we would most likely get a more polished in game passport Ryo.

I don't see what Ryo being introduced from a Miyawaki design has to do with anything and how it somehow negates the previous two games 3D artistic direction. Yoshitaka Amano and Yoji Shinkawa also make beautiful works but the in game end product always looks more grounded.

Well, we did have those hardware limitations, and it's already been proven time and time again in this thread that even in the old games they aspired to keep the aesthetic of the character art as much as they were technically able. They're continuing that, and now have far more advanced technology to do so.

Yokosuka wrote: The morphing is likely just a stylized effect. Morphing was pretty fashioned at the time. Moreover, even a bird face could have been used onto the Ryo's one then the morphing would have still worked.

*snip*

Interestingly, Shenmue I & II was sometimes an odd mix of highly realistic and slightly-manga characters. The most radical design was the bookstore girl in Shenmue II like if they literally snapped a woman face and paste it on a 3D model.

The morph isn't the point, it's the clear link between the art and the model as a conscious aesthetic choice. It's always been there, just now they've got superior hardware to display it with.

And I will say this (again), the character we've seen today has very exaggerated features on purpose. Even if they are able to render models of the character art with higher accuracy than ever before, not every character is going to look this way. We will still have a balance, just as we did in the originals. If anything, we can at least expect more consistency in the art style.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby RiGoRmOrTiS » Mon May 29, 2017 3:59 pm

honestly you people, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the model they showed. Its actually looks highly competent and very much follows the Shenmue style. What used to be texture work is now possible in actual geometry and lighting . Comparing some old mans face to a relatively young character is also hyper disingenuous in regards to texture detail.

Image

If you think Ryo's face on the right is more detailed than the left one you are insane. or deliberately trolling

I think what we really should be discussing is why they have nothing to show at E3 and why this months update is a mere few minutes long concentrating on only one model.

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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby The_Intruder » Mon May 29, 2017 4:15 pm

I like the new character. My only complaint is the update being too short. They always give us a very small glimpse and I would like updates to be no less than 3m.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby JohnBlack » Mon May 29, 2017 4:22 pm

I think what we really should be discussing is why they have nothing to show at E3 and why this months update is a mere few minutes long concentrating on only one model.


I think its because they develop software with agile\scrum(i bet even yu suzuki talked about that). If thats so - they dont have much ready to go material, because whole project is devided into small tasks.
Last edited by JohnBlack on Mon May 29, 2017 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Spaghetti » Mon May 29, 2017 4:23 pm

RiGoRmOrTiS wrote:I think what we really should be discussing is why they have nothing to show at E3 and why this months update is a mere few minutes long concentrating on only one model.

Yes.

Although, I think we can easily guess the reason for no E3 showing is a delay, and the short update is probably just a consequence of it being crunch time at the studio. The office sounded far busier than it has before in any case.

I wouldn't be enormously surprised if the delay is announced by the end of summer, but there's no way they can stick to the December 2017 line now.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby ChiefNeo » Mon May 29, 2017 5:10 pm

RiGoRmOrTiS wrote: honestly you people, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the model they showed. Its actually looks highly competent and very much follows the Shenmue style. What used to be texture work is now possible in actual geometry and lighting . Comparing some old mans face to a relatively young character is also hyper disingenuous in regards to texture detail.

Image

If you think Ryo's face on the right is more detailed than the left one you are insane. or deliberately trolling

I think what we really should be discussing is why they have nothing to show at E3 and why this months update is a mere few minutes long concentrating on only one model.


Agree to disagree. The look is fundamentally different. It's not a more evolved version of what we had before. That's passport Ryo. That's the high detail/high rez Ryo staring at you at the top right corner of this website. Thats NOT what they presented today. Most people are on one side of this argument and it's for good reason.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Bluecast » Mon May 29, 2017 5:12 pm

Shenmue seemed like a series that started in a realistic footing but would get more fantastical taking Ryo and the player in a stranger journey over time. Right now that unfinished character looks straight from Street Fighter V. Shenmue however has done some cartoonish characters before.I am sure technical limitations played a factor in the DC era why they might not have been as exaggerated as we see here. I also want to point out that Shenmue Online had some crazy shit. There was a half man half spider thing. There was a man where his arms were so long they dragged on the ground like a gorilla. Sure the game was cancelled but it could be telling of what to expect later in the series.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Shenmue_Trilogy » Mon May 29, 2017 5:40 pm

I will be honest with you. The character looks like from street fighter - not the same cartoonish level but its more close to it than shenmue. The exaggerated face features and the lack of textures makes the model looks kinda cartoonish.

Image
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Rikitatsu » Mon May 29, 2017 5:49 pm

ChiefNeo wrote:
This is what they are going for:Image

Instead of Image

Why choose wrinkly Jianmin for that comparison, though? It's not fair...

Here is a more accurate comparison:

Image
Image
Image

Compared to:

RiGoRmOrTiS wrote:
Image



Yeah, not much difference to be honest.

Just slightly adjust the skin shader to be less plasticity and there you go.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby killthesagabeforeitkillsu » Mon May 29, 2017 5:52 pm

RiGoRmOrTiS wrote: honestly you people, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the model they showed. Its actually looks highly competent and very much follows the Shenmue style. What used to be texture work is now possible in actual geometry and lighting . Comparing some old mans face to a relatively young character is also hyper disingenuous in regards to texture detail.

Image

If you think Ryo's face on the right is more detailed than the left one you are insane. or deliberately trolling

I think what we really should be discussing is why they have nothing to show at E3 and why this months update is a mere few minutes long concentrating on only one model.


If we are going to completely ignore the amazing handcraft work done with Ryo's in game model and put this new weird character model on a pedestal that most likely isn't even 50% finished because "geometry and lighting" then you can regard my opinion as insane deliberate trolling, because by this logic ride to hell character model quality beats Shenmue hands down.

I honestly hope this doesn't become a trend like other fanbases where they start bashing the old games just to put over the new stuff for group points. Saw this happen with the silent hill community, it ate itself trying to rationalize tomm hulett blunders.

We obviously cannot talk about or evaluate something they didn't show us, so it's natural people are looking at this and giving their opinion. They aren't showing off at E3 because they haven't reach presentable quality levels and we should help them get there by being honest about how we feel about what they show us.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby ShenmueLegacy » Mon May 29, 2017 6:09 pm

My quick thoughts...

1. We have seen how the revealed Shenmue III environments reflect that of the originals.

2. Do you think YS Net will really place a plastic, cartoony model in these environments?

3. They're still in the process of refining the characters towards Shenmue I + II's more realistic, human models.

Patience is a virtue.

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