"Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby shredingskin » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:26 pm

Spaghetti wrote:
I think a lot of your questions can kind of come under the umbrella of the game still being in Alpha and subject to change in many ways, so it's not wise to start talking specifics. We got some tidbits on the new QTEs recently, and an elaboration at least on Yu's design philosophy for the new combat. That'll probably be it until YSnet are ready to talk/show more.


Well, it's almost the major gameplay element that should already be nailed to the core concept, I do expect a lot of finetunning and iterations but over some basic principle. I'm not saying they're not onto it, but the responses we've got, are basically the same responses we got 2 years ago. Probably we're not far off thinking about something similar to arkham games (and that's a concrete concept).

What new info we got about QTEs ? Mabe I missed it. The most concise answer I remember was something like mixing scrolls with QTEs or something like that , around from the time the KS was still ongoing.

EDIT: Just read about the QTE sounds and lights (whatever that means lol).;
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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:41 pm

It's all a bit nebulous, I'll agree.

Maybe that's because we've known general ideas about the combat since MAGIC last year? Yu's new comments are largely the same but maybe with a bit more about why he's doing it thrown in. I'd say maybe everything Yu has talked about so far is in the game, but he's playing coy just in case stuff has to get chopped and changed.

The new QTEs sound interesting, even though we've barely got beyond a sentence about them. Yu is probably one of the few developers I trust to actually DO something with QTEs, so a semi-confirmation on taking a new form is interesting enough as it is.
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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby Centrale » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:44 pm

shredingskin wrote:
EDIT: Just read about the QTE sounds and lights (whatever that means lol).;


I take it to mean that instead of seeing actual button and d-pad prompts, the prompts will be more like flashes of light and color, maybe indicating a direction; and sounds might be more related to the environment rather than the beeps? Or perhaps the sounds will be related to the classic QTE sounds and will serve to indicate that a QTE is occurring, and then the light elements will occur? It's purely speculation at this point. I'm sure Yu Suzuki has looked at David Cage's approach and considered various ways to evolve the gameplay mechanics.
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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby Shenmue_Legend » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:47 pm

Ok firstly, the combat system in the Arkham games is terrible, period. I do not want any crap like this in Shenmue. And secondly, the combat system of Shenmue and Shenmue II is one of the best out of any game. How could it "show its age" when it's already great?
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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby Henry Spencer » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:53 pm

I do wonder if all of those moves we learnt in previous games will return or not, it'd be a shame. Looking at that trailer looks like Ryo does one of the moves that Shozo (the homeless man in Shenmue 1) taught him on the big guy. I'll miss moves like Elbow Assault and Tornado Kick if they're really starting from scratch. :sad:
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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:53 pm

Ooo, that's an interesting idea, Centrale. Like a chase where Ryo is running to/from something and the path ahead is illuminated somehow to indicate a button press.

That could be tricky to do properly but if YSnet pulled something like that off it could basically remove QTE button prompts, which is one of the biggest barriers to QTEs fulfilling their intended purpose as a playable cinematic sequence.

Not to mention how cool it would be if the game design was heavily focused toward branching paths and no real absolute failure state like some of the Shenmue II QTEs. Shenmue could live up to being that "the story is different for each player" ambition it never quite reached in some way.

But what about people with sight/hearing problems? I suppose considering the QTEs still respond to button presses the old style of QTEs could be an option to tick in a menu.
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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:58 pm

Shenmue_Legend wrote:How could it "show its age" when it's already great?

Technically speaking, problems with animations, the lock on system, stuff like that. Nuts and bolts under the hood shit. I dunno, we'll never know what a Shenmue III with the Virtua Fighter combat engine would be like, but maybe assuming the worst about a new engine right off the bat is premature.

I encourage everybody to look at what Yu has said, and then think about it in relation to what we've already had in Shenmue as combat. Like maybe it's just me, but I feel like I could draw a line of progression from the original games to where Yu wants the combat to be for III. Some stuff in particular like increased RPG mechanics do feel like that deeper game Yu always wanted Shenmue III to be, based on older interviews.
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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby ChiefNeo » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:07 pm

I would be happy with a "prettier" and "simpler" system to be honest. I was never a huge fan of the technical difficulty of the previous games when it came to combat. Something with more of a flow would be great. I want to see Ryo kicking ass in a cool manner.

This is what I hope for. forget Arkham. This is what it should be.


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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby Henry Spencer » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:08 pm

I also wonder if we will still be able to train (either Ryo by himself like in the parks in 1 or through sparring like he did with Jianmin in 2/Fuku-san in 1) or learn new moves from various NPCs like before.

Also, I would hate a Sleeping Dogs/Batman Arkham fighting system. So sick of that system now.
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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby shredingskin » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:09 pm

Shenmue_Legend wrote: Ok firstly, the combat system in the Arkham games is terrible, period. I do not want any crap like this in Shenmue. And secondly, the combat system of Shenmue and Shenmue II is one of the best out of any game. How could it "show its age" when it's already great?


It's an ok system, but it shows a lot of blindspots. You have a couple of moves that are OP and pretty much 1hit KO most guys. The hit recovery meant that fighting various guys most of the time they'll just surround you without doing anything. To add some difficulty you had a couple of guys that pretty much block everything, so you had to block and counter attack, that's basically the whole strategy, there isn't anything more.

This is pretty much exemplified in the Dou Niu fight that is boring as fuck, evade, hit, rinse and repeat. It can get somewhat fun because it's a tense moment and a dificulty spike, but as mechanics goes, it's pretty dull.

To do more complex moves in the fights is because you just want to, not because the game encourages you to do so (it's a valid design philosophy though). You can still have some special moves mixing that 2D fighting and those sliding arkham hits.

I wouldn't mind the old system, but to me it wasn't the end all of everything, and I don't think it would work that well with the environmental stuff that YS is thinking of adding to it.
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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby Shenmue_Legend » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:23 pm

ChiefNeo wrote: I would be happy with a "prettier" and "simpler" system to be honest. I was never a huge fan of the technical difficulty of the previous games when it came to combat. Something with more of a flow would be great. I want to see Ryo kicking ass in a cool manner.

This is what I hope for. forget Arkham. This is what it should be.


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Great, so a slightly better version of the Arkham games? No thanks. If you want to see Ryo "kicking ass in a cool manner" then with my idea of a combat system, you yourself would have to be skilled enough in order to do so. It's like in a fight, you wished you could beat 10 men or even beat a bully or something. You could wish all you want but in order to actually achieve it, you must be good enough. Same applies here.

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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby BlueMue » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:31 pm

Sleeping Dogs fighting looks cool, especially the over the top enviromental attacks, but it's way to automated and routine. The slow motion is also too "oooh look" and breaks the flow a bit. In Shenmue there were always certain types of fighting styles the enemies would have but it was still much more diverse and natural feeling there.

The old fighting system isn't perfect either. There could definately be some improvement in the targeting and camera system. It's very reminiscent of a fighting game, wich is good in a challenging way, but it's sometimes a bit annoying to pull of some of the moves because you just need to find the right time to let an enemy let you do it.
So maybe just make things easier to pull of without making the enemies cannon fodder and give more control and feedback over who Ryo targets without "gamey" visual clues like arrows, glows or outlines.

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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby DoubleO_Ren » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:50 pm

BlueMue wrote: Sleeping Dogs fighting looks cool, especially the over the top enviromental attacks, but it's way to automated and routine. The slow motion is also too "oooh look" and breaks the flow a bit. In Shenmue there were always certain types of fighting styles the enemies would have but it was still much more diverse and natural feeling there.

The old fighting system isn't perfect either. There could definately be some improvement in the targeting and camera system. It's very reminiscent of a fighting game, wich is good in a challenging way, but it's sometimes a bit annoying to pull of some of the moves because you just need to find the right time to let an enemy let you do it.
So maybe just make things easier to pull of without making the enemies cannon fodder and give more control and feedback over who Ryo targets without "gamey" visual clues like arrows, glows or outlines.

Holy shit Ryudo we agree on something, you probably don't even remember who I am but we used to clash heads a lot. Long time by the way.

If this is indeed Ryudo.

I agree fully a cleaner VF engine would've been perfect. Great point about the diverse moveset and fighting styles of the enemies.
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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby Chaikilla » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:28 pm

The old engine afforded the player a lot of freedom, that's what I loved about it. I've played Yakuza and sleeping dogs and your options in a fight are limited, from what I can remember. It quickly became very bland and repetitive for me.

Don't get my wrong, you can spam your way through Shenmue's main story for the most part too (in fact, you probably wouldn't even have to use the dodge button until disc 3 of the second game) but the key word here is "can". You can also take the time to learn a variety of moves and fight your own way. Personally, I love using throw moves; machine gun fist, arm break fire, shoulder buster, etc. It feels really satisfying to pull these off in the heat of battle. My brother on the other hand didn't give a damn about the combat system and pretty mashed A until he met Baihu in disc 3 of Shenmue 2, to whom he lost to about 10 times in a row before he broke the disc in rage. It wouldn't be until the game came out on the original Xbox that I'd get the chance to finish it ;/

I'd love an advanced version of the old engine, if possible. If I could identify problems in the old engine, they would be as follows:

1. Dodging was a little overpowered. I'd like to see the A.I react and punish players for carelessly spamming dodges.

2. Melee battles made it hard to fight freely. By this I mean it was hard to choose moves with more difficult inputs because you'd often be interrupted before you could register them. This was largely down to a combination of the environments being too small to accommodate such battles and the A.I bum-rushing Ryo from every angle. I think it's telling how the best melee battle in the series is the 70 man battle. Why? Lots of space to fight and Ryo fights a few at a time.

One on one fights were handled well overall and allowed for much freedom of play. I didn't like the ring outs for the Rod and Greg fights, though, but that's another story.

I would love to see an animation change for moves as your skill increases, much like in Shenmue 1. Along with a chance to practice alone or with a sparring partner that you can actually hit (damn Jianmin ;/)

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Re: "Unlike Shenmue II it won't use the Virtua engine."

Postby DoubleO_Ren » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:49 pm

to whom he lost to about 10 times in a row before he broke the disc in rage. It wouldn't be until the game came out on the original Xbox that I'd get the chance to finish it ;/

Open or closed casket, or was it a cremation?
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